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View Full Version : Trying to organize a "Technical Mountain Riding School" out west...



skeedoo
12-18-2010, 11:40 AM
Well I need another excuse to go sledding in the mountains... so here's what I am trying to do. I have contacted Chris Burandt to see what his thoughts are on this and I will let everyone know more as things unfold. After all there are schools that you can go to for just about every sport out there except a dedicated technical riding school for mountain sledders. Here's my email to Burandt:

Hey Chris,
I was wanting to organize a mountain riding snowmobile school somewhere out west (Colorado or Wyoming). I am from Indiana but go west several times a year to ride exclusively in the backcountry. Although I think my riding skills are good there is always room to improve and I think there are lots of people out there that may be thinking the same thing. So that brings me to you... I am wanting to get some of the best mountain riders together as instuctors, Mike Duffy of avalanche 1 to do an "on the snow" avy course and try to get a group of folks together for an on the snow technical riding school and maybe some classroom/video instuction. I would think everyone interested in learning more would bring there own sled. My thought is an all inclusive deal... school, lodging, meals, etc. With the power of the internet getting the word out would not be a problem. Whats your thoughts, am I barking up the wrong tree here? You are the first person I have contacted but I personally know several other riders/guides/intructors that I plan on contacting. I guess what would need to be done is decide on a location, cost, date and who can be an instuctor. Also maybe some sled maufacturers could come in as sponsors of the event. I think it would benefit everyone involved and make this sport safer for all. This could maybe become an annual event. Also I am aware that when you hire a backcountry guide they are always teaching new techniques but this would be more of a structured event. Thanks, Chris Walker

Whats everyone on the JD Forum think of this idea... any takers if its cost effective?

polarisrider1
12-18-2010, 12:22 PM
I likey!

Firecatguy
12-18-2010, 03:23 PM
Thats a great idea!!!they only thing is.....You goto Tog for 5 days a ride behind a Guide you become a better rider every time you do this....taking in everything they havce to offer is the way to go......Chirs B get 600$ a day for that!!!his calendar is booked all the way to april so I dont think it would be something he would do!!!!!

Firecatguy
12-18-2010, 03:29 PM
http://www.burandtsbackcountryadventure.com/estimator.php

skeedoo
12-18-2010, 04:16 PM
Yep I know all about his schedule and costs. I have gone into more detail on another site about why I talked to Burandt first and my reasons for trying to organize such an event. Also I am aware of the benefits of riding with guides but what I am talking about is a whole different thing. Don't forget I've been a professional fisherman since 1991 and full time fishing guide since 2002. There's still lots of other professional fisherman that could still teach me a thing or two. I'm at a Purdue basketball game right now but when I get home to my computer I'll copy and paste what I wrote and comment more on riding behind guides. Also just testing the waters to see if a " large scale" mountain riding school could actually happen. Where ya been Pat... haven't heard much from ya lately.

polarisrider1
12-18-2010, 06:45 PM
[VQUOTE=Firecatguy;179703]Thats a great idea!!!they only thing is.....You goto Tog for 5 days a ride behind a Guide you become a better rider every time you do this....taking in everything they havce to offer is the way to go......Chirs B get 600$ a day for that!!!his calendar is booked all the way to april so I dont think it would be something he would do!!!!![/QUOTE]

Very true, and it comes with the pkg. Donít Think Carter is the only game in town, he is a fantastic teacher andgets you a good mix. I mix it up. Riding with Noah you better have a saw for the thick stuff. Brett you get meadows, Justin you get steep, and back in the day with Matt Binion you got the whole Asylum. Chad stays low, like willows and riding creek beds and then the cool places to take pics. And they will all mix it up for you. Carter I like because he explains how to do it before you get into trouble, plus his heart is into it._

whiteout
12-18-2010, 09:05 PM
Has anyone looked into the riding school that Dan Adams offers overin the Alpine area. Looks like he goes over more of the finer points of mtn riding.

snoluver1
12-18-2010, 09:15 PM
Rasmussen does it to. For a measly 3 grand you can learn to ride just like him! http://riderasmussenstyle.com/ Also, I thought I remember seeing you could get one on one instruction from Burandt too, if you have the money.

polarisrider1
12-18-2010, 09:43 PM
3 grand gets you a month at Togwotee with all the guides, meals, lodging, happy hr. Included. No brainer for me. Just need the 3 grand.

Firecatguy
12-18-2010, 10:26 PM
the Chris B Backcountry adventure was a mear 5400$ per person for 5 days food,sled,bed!!!well heck that one deal there!!!!anyone have loan rates on riding class?

skeedoo
12-18-2010, 11:16 PM
Damn Pat wake up and smell the coffee dude. You spend to much time on line. Talk to some people in person and maybe you'll learn you don' t have to spend much to learn a ton. Seriously I'm getting a ton of intersest in this for a very low cost so far. Wow someone (i think i know who) has you snowed!!! Someone has you thinking that sledding knowledge all of a sudden cost alot of money. Wow not sure why you think this is impossible to do but so far I couldn't be happier with the response from pro's/sponsor's. Get out and ride that's the best knowledge you can have but I live a professional sport and let me tell you what makes us tick. PAYING CUSTOMERS WILLING TO LEARN MORE, AND JUST ENJOYING WHAT WE DO IN THE OUTDOORS... EVEN FOR AN OCCASSIONAL LOSS JUST TO HELP OTHERS ENJOY WHAT WE GET PAID FOR ALL THE TIME. REALLY PAT I'VE LIVED PROFESSIONAL SPORTS A LONG TIME AND THERE'S PLENTY OF PRO'S WILLING TO SHARE THERE KNOWLEDGE FOR A VERY MINIMAL CHARGE BECAUSE WE LOVE IT!!!! LOVE IT!!! LOVE IT DUDE MORE THAN YOU KNOW!! Its getting a great response from sponsors and pro's so if your not in than fine but don't talk about something your not sure about. Don't just believe what you read online... these guys are just people like you and me. There more than happy to do events like this, its actually what keeps us sponsored. You need to just ask, these guys are as willing to help as pro fisherman just like I thought it would be. Sorry you think its impossible.

Firecatguy
12-18-2010, 11:27 PM
Ok Chris im not sure what the heck you are trying to say to me, all i pointed out is Chris B get 5400 a rider for his lodge and school *** is this big rant you have pointed at me!!!!and for you to think im snowed *** are you talking about????I real happy for you and hope you go far with you school thing, great idea i know there is a ton of places to do this already out west!!!!!

snoluver1
12-18-2010, 11:40 PM
Wow, pretty touchy there Skidoo. I think the point was its already available. There are riding clinics all over the mountains. Its not exactly a new idea. If you can get it done for substantially cheaper, all the power to ya!! Have fun with it and see where it leads.

snoluver1
12-18-2010, 11:42 PM
You did ask for feedback didn't you?

polarisrider1
12-19-2010, 12:19 AM
Wow! Nobody is dissing you Chris, Pat is a fantastic guy. The idea is pricey. I am sure you will learn from the Pros, but it will not make one a Pro in a week. It is a perceived value.

skeedoo
12-19-2010, 12:30 AM
My bad. No rant here just seemed like you have found every excuse why it's gonna cost a ton. I live a pro sport everyday and dude most guys are willing to share there knowledge for free. Its only because its our job that we charge. Outdoor professionals love doing what they do, period. I have used forums for fishing info since the internet started and it seems most guys on them only believe what's written online and forget that you can actually make a phone call and talk to people which usually gets you much better response. Pat you know me, let's finish this via a phone call cause I'm not sure its working on a public forum anyway and I'm still not home so quite frankly I'm sick of typing on my Droid X.

polarisrider1
12-19-2010, 12:46 AM
Chris, not bad if you typed all that on a droid X, I'm doing it on a droid 2 and it has a mind of it's own. Lol. Good luck on putting the class together.

kim
12-19-2010, 10:26 AM
Every rider will teach another rider something, whether it's a guide or another rider. Why re-invent the wheel? (meaning why another school, when there are plenty out there) Just my .02

skeedoo
12-19-2010, 11:39 AM
O.K, I'm the first person to admit when I'm wrong and yes I think I went about this the wrong way. Let me start off by addressing my "rant" and the remarks I made (I had a few "wobbly pops" at the game and was not thinking clearly). Now that I am on my home computer and not dealing with this on my phone (obviously wasn't working out) I can see that I went slightly overboard on my presentation of some facts. I am sorry Pat!! I wasn't trying to call anybody out here. I was only trying to state the fact that I deal with events like this all the time in my fishing career and they are actually very easy to organize, very cost effective and when you get a group of Pro's together telling stories and teaching it is a friggin' blast for all involved. Yes, snowmobile clinic's/lessons are all over the mountains but they are one guy/gal teaching there one way of doing things. I do something every year called a Pro's roundtable at one of the trade shows I do. Last year it was Roland Martin, Jimmy Houston, Babe Winkleman and myself. We are all asked the same fishing related question and trust me we all give drastically different answers - our audiance learns way more than I can teach them alone. Again I am talking about a whole different thing here with this event than just hiring one pro or one guide to teach me what they know. Multiple pro's on multiple machine's showing you a variety of techniques, classroom style clinics/seminars on how to set up your machine for your particular riding style, what to have with you when riding to stay safe, avalanche training, different levels of classes to cater to the different levels of riding and the list can be endless. My thought is to have maufactures involved, aftermarket guys there talking about there products and how they can benefit you as a rider and so on. My thinking was to make this a "large scale" event that manufacturers and sponsors would love to be involved in and also help keep all costs to a minimum. Actually I'll address the cost thing... All of the costs thrown out on here are way out of hand. 5 grand for Burandt is insane. My calculations are not even close to that. Actually the dude charges less per day than I do for my fishing guide service and I am booked solid from March to November and have overflow guides taking my clients once I get booked up. People have no problem putting out some serious money for fishing so why not snowmobiling. When I do events like this for my fishing business my sponsors actually flip the bill because they know there are huge benefits for them in return with future sales. $3000 for Rasmussen is insane. Actually most of his prices are for groups of 6 to 15, but again you went on his website and picked out the highest number on there and threw it out on this forum. Split that cost up and your talking about a very minimal charge for what you get in return. These numbers are hugely inflated and are nothing like what actually can be done when you group it together in a sponsored event like this would be. Bottom line is I didn't just think of this idea in a matter of minutes and throw it up for discussion on a public forum - its something I reseached quite a bit before even talking with anyone about it. Actually I put this out for discussion on other sled forums and got very constuctive responses where nobody started to throw out how much something like this can cost, but more about who could be involved and they started telling stories of why they could use such a class and actually posted some pretty brutal pictures of some serious accidents they have had in the mountains and pics of broken bones to prove it. I think thats one reason for me getting my balls in an uproar on here cause this was the only forum that didn't quite take this as serious as others and were making it look like this would costs thousands per person when actual costs are very minimal. This would not be one person taking a week long class were talking about 2 days max - damn a week class I had better be a sponsored pro after something like that. The biggest cost/issue you have to figure out is how to get a blanket insurance policy to cover everybody's azz if something were to go drastically wrong and an attendee gets seriously hurt at the event - which will probably happen, cause like its been said many times if your not breaking sled parts or getting hurt every once in a while your not trying hard enough!! I'll copy and paste some of the comments that were on these other forums because I think everyone on here will see that yes even guys fron Alaska and B.C took this idea seriously and said if you can make it happen then get it done. They actually gave me some more ideas of how to have a forum based discussion on how to improve your riding skills and have everyone from that particular forum share there stories, talents and maybe we all could learn a thing or to. Well it seems I'm back on the "rant" thing, but thats what makes these forums interesting right... a little banter back and forth never hurt anybody. Again I am very sorry to whomever I offended and please don't hold it against me, I am very passionate about "outdoor" recreation and sometimes I go just a bit overboard. Also Snoluver1 you are right I did ask for comments about this and thank you to all that have commented!!

snoluver1
12-19-2010, 02:38 PM
So, I guess I'm still confused as to what exactly you are trying to accomplish, that hasn't already been done or isn't readily available already.
Just about every guide service offers some form of basic instruction on riding techniques and positioning, etc. Manufacturer involvement and after market vendors showcasing there products? Ever hear of Hay Days? Ever seen the Schooled video's? My point is if someone is looking for basic instruction, its out there. If someone already has the basics down, and wants to improve their skill level, there is only one way to become a better rider, and that is to ride with people that are better than you. If you can't find anyone better than you to ride with, you can pay a pro like Burandt or Rasmussen or Dan Adams to take you out and kick your but. You can go to the Polaris Assault camp, you can go to snocross riding schools, you can go to the snow shows, you can take avy courses, you can take snow stability courses out west, you can take survival courses, you can take first responder courses . Its all there for the people who want it.
Not trying to burst your bubble or squash your dreams, just trying to figure out exactly what your offering that isn't already there. Please --explain!

Firecatguy
12-19-2010, 06:30 PM
Its all good Chris.....snowluver1 hit it on the head find someone who can push you past your comfort zone then you will be ahead of the game......

skeedoo
12-19-2010, 06:36 PM
So, I guess I'm still confused as to what exactly you are trying to accomplish, that hasn't already been done or isn't readily available already.
Just about every guide service offers some form of basic instruction on riding techniques and positioning, etc. Manufacturer involvement and after market vendors showcasing there products? Ever hear of Hay Days? Ever seen the Schooled video's? My point is if someone is looking for basic instruction, its out there. If someone already has the basics down, and wants to improve their skill level, there is only one way to become a better rider, and that is to ride with people that are better than you. If you can't find anyone better than you to ride with, you can pay a pro like Burandt or Rasmussen or Dan Adams to take you out and kick your but. You can go to the Polaris Assault camp, you can go to snocross riding schools, you can go to the snow shows, you can take avy courses, you can take snow stability courses out west, you can take survival courses, you can take first responder courses . Its all there for the people who want it.
Not trying to burst your bubble or squash your dreams, just trying to figure out exactly what your offering that isn't already there. Please --explain!

Its very simple... One venue, one event, one show, one school, multiple instuctors, lots of seminars and clinics from pro's and vendors showcasing all of what you just said and more. All at one place during the sled season, real life on the snow presentations from lots of different sources only focusing on mountain riding. Now thats an event I want to attend but there isn't one. Try and find that at any "one" event that you just mentioned. O.k, Mike Duffy does his avy class at some Snow Shows but where's the big seminar area where there's multiple speakers talking about a variety of topics and god for bid you try and find anything at most Snow Shows that have to do with mountain riding, except for Engleharts BCA Avy packs and Tracker Beacons. Ski-doo didn't even have a Summit at this years Milwaukee Snow Show, that bummed me out. Where the dudes setting up a turbo or nitrous on my sled, helping me dial it in, having snow to test it on. I'm glad I passed up this years Haydays cause that was chaos. But again where's all of the schooling going on there? Its a huge event for snowmobiling but where's the "age old" Trade Show seminar area, clinic area, instuructional area there isn't one. Go to any other sports clinic or most all trade shows and you will have multiple coaches, speakers, instuctors to learn as much as you can in the shortest amount of time. Its not a new concept that I have thought of but it is a new concept to the snowmobiling indutry. Snoluver1 you are a very knowledgable rider, I can tell that from all of the posts you have done here on JD so lets not make this harder than it needs to be, actually if an event like this can be organized I would think that you as a snowmobiler would be jumping for joy just to see another "Sled Industry" event happen, especially one dedicated to mountain riding only. Also, obviously this is something that is very hard to put together for this year seeing as how the season is well underway but if not a late season event then I hope to have all ducks in a row for next sled season, no hurry here - I do already know how to ride and use all mountain safety equipment. I do own the schooled video's but that does'nt matter. I can watch lots of fishing video's but actually doing it in real life is much different. Nothing, absolutely no school can compare to actual on the sled riding time. I hope I have explained enough that all confusion is gone cause its not something that should be confusing at all.

Administrator
12-19-2010, 07:16 PM
Sorry guys.

Had to delete a few posts as things were getting a bit too personal. Hope you can understand.

Feel free to carry on and have at it via e mail, or the bicycle rack behind school or what have you! ;)

-John

snoluver1
12-19-2010, 07:38 PM
Well, if you can get all that put together under one roof and on one mountain side, sure I'd be interested. Sounds like a good show. Good luck with your venture and let us know when you have it all worked out.

cuzzinolaf
12-19-2010, 07:55 PM
Can someone give me the cliffnotes version of what went down here? I'm busy with work stuff after a few days of riding.... and a bent a-arm. uggggh!

snoluver1
12-19-2010, 08:29 PM
Can someone give me the cliffnotes version of what went down here? I'm busy with work stuff after a few days of riding.... and a bent a-arm. uggggh!

That right there is funny:D

willey
12-19-2010, 09:04 PM
Chris, I have never met you personally but your passion for the outdoors rings true in my heart! I love the outdoors!!! If I could be in a boat or behind my handle bars on the sled half as much as you I would be in heaven. You make something like this happen and people will show up. Knowledge is power and it takes us a far as we want to go and beyond. I learn more about fishing with different guides and individuals than I could ever learn by reading a magazine or watching a fishing show and the same goes for sledding. I got into mountain riding last year with my first trip to Tog. I have a ton to learn in regards to safety and technique. I hope to take my first avalanche class next year(missed out this year). Sold my 136" and jumped to 151" summit. So far I love it. Can't wait to take it to the mountains this year. Just one trip for me if I am lucky. I know from first hand experience that events like this work. I grew up fishing with the Grandparents and had many days on the dock with full stringers of blue gills. At age 9 I went to a camp in Walker MN put on by In-Fisherman called Camp Fish. That was over 20 years ago and I still remember it like yesterday. I loved it!!! Went four years in a row for a week at a time. Fished with pros like AL Linder and Babe ad many others. Learned and watched from the best!!!

This can happen and If I can help at all I am all ears. Hope to meet you and lay down some tracks in the BC sometime. Keep up the good work!!!

Bill

doospunk
12-19-2010, 11:30 PM
Can someone give me the cliffnotes version of what went down here? I'm busy with work stuff after a few days of riding.... and a bent a-arm. uggggh!

haha! Carnage!! Nice job Keith! Rock?, Power line cable support?, tree?, or pulling it off the trailer?

doodah
12-19-2010, 11:56 PM
Thats a great idea!!!they only thing is.....You goto Tog for 5 days a ride behind a Guide you become a better rider every time you do this....taking in everything they havce to offer is the way to go......Chirs B get 600$ a day for that!!!his calendar is booked all the way to april so I dont think it would be something he would do!!!!!

I agree 100% with you on that one Carter! If you remember correctly we were the group from wisco with a girl named shelly. The two days we rode with you she turned into one **** of a rider! I highly recommend the tml guides, we will be hopefully booking you again for this years trip!

cuzzinolaf
12-20-2010, 12:48 AM
haha! Carnage!! Nice job Keith! Rock?, Power line cable support?, tree?, or pulling it off the trailer?

Tree, not looking forward and I was either looking back at someone or scoping lines. No cool story behind this dumb move LOL. All of my hairy stuff had no carnage... figures.

polarisrider1
12-20-2010, 02:33 AM
Tree, not looking forward and I was either looking back at someone or scoping lines. No cool story behind this dumb move LOL. All of my hairy stuff had no carnage... figures.

here you go Keith http://www.babbittsonline.com/arctic-cat-parts I understand they have windshields also! lol. I order from these guys and they are pretty good.

techsledder
12-20-2010, 09:51 AM
Tree, not looking forward and I was either looking back at someone or scoping lines. No cool story behind this dumb move LOL. All of my hairy stuff had no carnage... figures.
Please tell me the cam was ON for this one event and that you'll post it! :D

polarisrider1
12-20-2010, 10:31 AM
Please tell me the cam was ON for this one event and that you'll post it! :D

I found when riding with Keith you never turn off the camera and bring extra batteries for it. He's the reason I carry 2 extra 16MB sd cards. Anything can happen at anytime with him! :)

cuzzinolaf
12-20-2010, 10:53 AM
Please tell me the cam was ON for this one event and that you'll post it! :D

I think it was but am not sure. I had the cam on 70% of the time that day but left it off for some cool stuff... grrrrr!


I found when riding with Keith you never turn off the camera and bring extra batteries for it. He's the reason I carry 2 extra 16MB sd cards. Anything can happen at anytime with him! :)

LMAO! WTH? I rarely wreck....

skeedoo
12-20-2010, 11:06 AM
Can someone give me the cliffnotes version of what went down here? I'm busy with work stuff after a few days of riding.... and a bent a-arm. uggggh!

Hey Cuz don't feel bad I hooked a rock while doing a small sidehill out in the Snowies a couple of weeks ago. Pretzeled my lower A-arm. I could obviously ride it out but had some pretty serious ski pressure on that side. Early season riding definetly has its disadvantages!! This thing was buried in the powder and only made a small hump in the snow, I was trying to miss one that was visible and caught another that I just didn't see... but my helmet cam did!! I just left my sled at Maverick's Motorsports in Wyoming and had them check it over for any further damage and get the parts to fix it. Got lucky it looks like, pretty minimal damage.

willey
12-21-2010, 10:48 PM
Found this on Snowest!

http://www.snowest.com/snowmobile-news/display.cfm?ID=2609

H*ll Cat
02-08-2011, 10:01 AM
Being from Utah (The Greatest Snow On Earth) I love the idea of a Mt. Riding School. Your idea sounds like the ATV Jamboree's that are held here. Having an all in one Riding School over like a 2 to 3 day event would be awesome. I would add a category for sledders to bring their "For Sale" items so riders can try it on for size, sleds, trailers, outfits, accessories, etc. An a category for physically challenged riders. Reading up on some of clinics & lessons they sound great, yet this being my first year on a New School sled (I've been riding since a child) I am not sure who's clinic would be the best techniques for me to learn & my husband rides a little different from me! So we could go somewhere & get the basics from several "teachers" then we would feel more comfortable spending the extra $$ for lessons. I know from the videos we purchased a lot of the Pro riders are from the Utah area, maybe consider Utah as an area to hold your event. Along with bringing in the big guns you'd get a lot of volunteer help since we have the highest volunteer hours in the nation, just look at how our Olympics went! In reading thru your posts you'd mentioned other sites that you were going to share here, yet I haven't seen them. Did you add them to a different post? I would be a strong supporter of this program so I could gain the confidence on my machine, like I felt on my 1980 El Tigre!