View Full Version : Time for a 4 stroke!
09-07-2009, 06:58 PM
So I bought a new 4 stroke (Arctic Cat Jag Z1). Will I like the 4 stroke?
09-07-2009, 08:01 PM
09-07-2009, 08:21 PM
There is no reason to go 2 stroke anymore unless you like paying a extra buck a gallon for fuel cause if you factor in the cost of 2 stroke oil now thats what you are paying unless ur riding a Etec.I went 4 stroke last season with the 1200 Doo and never going back.The new Doo Gade weighs less than a 800 Switchback.I boosted the Doo and it will run with about anything out there. http://www.johndee.com/discuss/messages/9/114120.jpg
09-08-2009, 10:00 AM
“There is no reason to go 2 stroke anymore.” Uhhhhhh… I can think of a few, power to weight ratio is the first thing that pops into my head, but I’m sure others can think of more. But I guess, if you’re pounding out 400 trail miles a day 4 stroke is the way to go.
09-08-2009, 10:03 AM
09-08-2009, 10:28 AM
You will like the 4 stroke. I have 3 4 stroke sleds and I like them a lot. They are quiter than 2 strokes. You don't smell after a ride unless your riding with 2 strokes. They don't fill the garage up with smoke when you're working on them. Also, they consistently get better fuel mileage than a 2 stroke sled.
09-08-2009, 11:57 AM
I WENT TO A YAMAHA APEX LTX AND WILL NEVER GO BACK TO A 2 STROKE.
WAS A POLARIS RIDER SINCE 1986. I LIKE THE SLEDS EXCEPT FOR MILEAGE.
NOW I CAN RIDE LONGER ON A TANK OF GAS AND ONLY HAVE TO CHANGE OIL ONCE A YEAR.
09-08-2009, 12:54 PM
#1 reason to stay away from a 4 stroker...........The lack of that wounderfull smell that a 2 stroker gives!<font color="ff0000"></font><font color="ff0000"></font><font color="ff0000"></font><font color="ff0000"></font>
09-08-2009, 02:40 PM
I can think of a few reasons why 2 strokes will be around for a while. 2 stroke engines weight alot less given similar hp output. The cost to rebuild and repair 2 strokes is much much less than the 4 stroke counterparts. The complexity within the 4 stroke motors makes repairs very costly and way less people have the skills to do so on there own. What happend when the electric start takes a dump in the middle of the woods? Pull start? I think not. Also remember there is some significant cost associated with a oil change if not done on your own. I think there will forever be a market for 2 strokes particularly in the off trail crowd where weight is a significant factor. Some may say boost is the answer, but then we come back to the cost argument. Try lugging around a apex mountain in the deep snow and woods of the UP for a day, then try it on a similar HP 2 stroke sled. There is a place for this 4 stroke technology and it is certailnly progressing at an astonishing rate. At the same time, 2 stroke injection methods and emissions are also progressing. To say that there is no reason to run a 2 stroke is plain rediqulous.
09-08-2009, 03:11 PM
Long live 2 strokes,
2 stroke smell should be bottled and sold.Sorry but 4 strokes smell,riding behind them is like being stuck in traffic all day.Or maybe its because the way yamaha has the exhaust straight out the back.JMO
09-09-2009, 09:11 AM
I love the whole "what will you do when your starter or battery dies". 9/10 times if you have a problem like that it's in the morning not out while riding. How often you leave your house with your car/truck and think "man I hope this thing starts again"! I like them both 2 and 4 stroke but I honestly would be more worried about my 2 stroke burning down than my 4 stroke not starting.
We need someone to come out with a Good 3 STROKE!!! http://www.johndee.com/discuss/messages/9/114198.gif
09-09-2009, 09:42 AM
WEIGHT! Maybe when they come out with 4-stroke that weighs 450 lbs. Has at least 120 hp, and handles like a rev xp, I'll think about it. Until then I can't wait till the delivery of my 2010 renegade x etec
09-09-2009, 10:17 AM
there is a device out there that monitors your battery's curent condition and gives you an alarm when it enters a prefailure mode. It is called a battery bug it can be used on any 12 volt system. If you are worried about not starting because of a dead battery.
09-09-2009, 10:45 AM
2 Stroke noise is an issue? I'm willing to bet 98% of sledders LOVE the sound. The smell; it can get to you, but you love it too. I'll at least wait til I burn down my XLT... made it 14 years thus far with 1 new piston.
09-09-2009, 10:54 AM
My 4s Attack 150 starts at -30F no problem. Now would I ride when that cold? Not anymore too much frostbite last year on my face to do that again. I never worry about the 4s starting & never charge battery during the season just late in Nov. I'm never going back to 2s done with 2s meltdowns & towed out. Yam did a lot model year 2010 to lighten up 4s for powder but still 2s domain. Most new Trail sleds except doo will be all 4s by 2013 so get used to it or purchase 2s now if a 2s diehard.
09-09-2009, 10:55 AM
Ok, so what is the real difference in weight?
Let's say you take a 600 2 stroke sled, what size in a 4 stroke is comparable power wise. And how much more roughly does that 4 stroke weigh?
09-09-2009, 11:05 AM
Ok how much do I weigh at 217 lbs when I have to walk out at -30F when my 2s burns downhttp://www.johndee.com/discuss/clipart/sad.gif ?
4s not heavy if it does not handle heavy. Sure 2s will always be lighter but becoming a so what fact with great handling 4s sleds. Weight matters off trail not on trail unless it is dead weight.
09-09-2009, 11:25 AM
I think the concern about the battery is legitimate. We have some jet skis and have trouble with the batteries all the time - probably because they don't get used all that often. You don't have issues like that with a car since you use them year-round and nearly every day. I suppose with some maintenance you won't have an issue (battery tender) but I'd feel more comfortable if there was an alternate way of starting them when you're out riding if the battery goes down. Maybe there is - can you still start them with a strap around the clutch like with a 2 stroke?
09-09-2009, 11:26 AM
It was just a question posed. I really don't know how much weight difference there is between a 2 and a 4.
I am just curious.
As for weight, it does matter on trails and off. If you are riding 300+ mile days even on good trails, the heavier the sled, the more tired you are at the end of the day.
Don't get me wrong, I am not Pro 2s or Pro 4s.
Currently all of my sleds are 2 strokes, but that may change in the future.
09-09-2009, 11:58 AM
famousguy you would have to look up each OEM 120 to 140hp 2s engine sleds & then compare 120hp to 140 hp 4s sleds. Not many new 120hp 4s since they produce 125-139 hp when dynoed. 2s 120hp could be 118hp just real world of hp 2s & 4s & power bands very different as well.
The weight issue is becoming a non issue because new 4s sleds are so well balanced. Back in 90s trail sled weight was a HUGE issue.... throwing my 98 Mach around took a lot of effort.
Throwing around my 600 lb 150hp 4s Attack on trail is not an issue off trail.. Yes.
The 2s vs 4s weight is not a trail handling issue & that is why 4s trail sleds are becoming soooo popular...good gas milage, broad power band,no oil smell, gas & go sleds like cars.
You need to test ride a 4s so you can see why they are becoming so popular.
If you want the lightest 4s sleds check out doo lots of 4s models.
AC,Poo & Yam heavier 4s sleds but handle very well.
I hope this helps but ride a 4s first then ask yourself if weight matters on trail. It is a non issue to me 07 Attack GT best sled I have owned & I used to be a 2s doo rider
09-09-2009, 12:08 PM
iusmit: My buddies 2006 4s Rage sits for 3-4 weeks between rides & starts right up. Yam sells small jumper cable package if you are worried about dead battery that fits in seat compartment. You will get over the dead battery fear as the years pass by & no problems.
09-09-2009, 12:08 PM
The only point I was trying to make is that to say "There is no reason to go 2 stroke anymore unless you like paying a extra buck a gallon for fuel" is pure crazy talk.
09-09-2009, 12:20 PM
I haven't touched my battery in going on 5 years. I never charge it in the off season or riding season. As far as trail riding they simply cannot be beat. Every year we have a 2 stroke in our group blow up and it's usually a SKI DOO. Ideally a person needs both. A long tracked 2 stroke for off trail and a 4 stroke for long trail riding. Neither excel in both categories.
09-09-2009, 12:40 PM
Typically there is about 80-100 lbs difference in weight between the two.
When you put a 200+ rider w/gear on a 450 lb two stroke, you have 650 lbs....or 750 with a 4 stroke. This amounts to about 12% difference. Not enough to be concerned with for most folks. Pay attention to track/ski setup and gearing and 4's make for decent off trail sleds. Try and just take a 4 off trail with no adjustments and they don't work well, but then lots of 2 strokes have the same issues.
Technique is far more important. Momentum, ski stance, traction, will rule the day as well as snow conditions.
I have used a pair of 4's off trail for 3 years and I wouldn't go back. I don't stick them much either.
On trail all the above issues are not important.
You will see more and more 4's over time and like two cylinder John Deere's...they will be around, but not the main stable for most folks who need to be back home on Monday.
Oh, and they can be started with a strap on the primary, quite easily...not that you will ever pull that strap out of the tool box and use it...but it might be peace of mind.
Unfortunately, the newer sleds need good battery power to even run...so unless it is just a stuck starter, you will walk if the battery craps out.
09-09-2009, 12:46 PM
WTH? All our 2 strokes start properly. Couple of pulls. Know the temperature, how much choke your going to have to use, let it warm 5-10 minutes, stop to put gas in it, and go. Never had one burn down; what can I say? I don't doubt a 2smoke will blow up more easily, you guys make it sound like the blow up every other ride though lol.
I agree that a 4stroke would be better for trail riding though.
09-09-2009, 01:23 PM
4 strokes are great for trail cruising and I agree with rsvector dude that in an ideal world we would all have 1 of each. A nice lightweight longtrack 2 stroke and a 4 stroke trail cruiser (ideally with a turbo on each) lol.
09-09-2009, 05:04 PM
beakjones: I just can not get 5000 miles out of an injected 2s without bag,pop & end of engine! Older 2s yes but newer injected 2s & power cruising in the MIUP is formula for a burndown for me. 2s factory crank seals just don't do the job & no lube to the crank not a good thing at high speeds. ETEC the faster you go the more oil you will use & maybe still not enough to keep everything lubricated. Power cruising 300+ mile trail days is 4s all the way.
4's are heavier period. A lot of that weight is in the much-taller-than-a-two-stroke engine. The weight is carried higher which is inherently bad for just about all handling conditions if you are really pushing it. Four stroke sleds are not competitive in cross country races. Yamaha put Cory Davidson on the best they could build and he never came close. They have since pretty much given up on CC races. "Doo pretty much owns cross country at this point in time. That is the best example of the difference weight makes. However, most of us on this site don't run cross country races. For trail riding it is hard to beat the new fours. If you are into heavy boondocking and ride with the intention of getting stuck from time to time you will get really strong if you choose a four. Stuck is when you realize weight differences. I am old now just like to trail ride. The Yamis are rock solid dependable. I am not afraid to take off alone on a 150 mile trip. I have had four of them and have never been towed once. It is all about how you prefer to ride and what you like to do. To each his own. I'm glad we still have the choice.
09-09-2009, 07:24 PM
Yikes, this thread is starting to get warm...I think my profile answers "my side" of this debate. http://www.johndee.com/discuss/clipart/happy.gif
09-09-2009, 08:05 PM
We have paid up 2 $18 a quart in out areas for the fancy 2stroke oil.Yaa go about 130 miles on a tank of gas and burn a quart of oil.Who is nuttz now.
09-09-2009, 08:58 PM
I run Ski-Doo oil in my weed eater just to remember the great winter times.I love the 2 strokes, older people love the 4 strokes.
09-09-2009, 09:05 PM
WHY DOES UR WIFE WEAR RUBBER GLOVES ? CBEAR
09-09-2009, 10:35 PM
what do you run for fuel in that turbo 4 stroke?
09-09-2009, 11:00 PM
I picked up the yellowstone spec cat the first year it came out. the goofy drk green one.big mistake top heavy tank .the wife put 60 mi on it I could not give it away.but it did get good mpg.I have ridden the new yammi 3cyl on the river it is great. on the rail grade it is great.for the tight local woods trails it is ok. for ditch banging it sucks. in the woods off trail I wanted my sled back after 15 min. and the owner of that yammi still has the yammi but also has a crossfire 8. I wish I could justify the 11g for the z1turbo I would get one just for the river and lakes and for long drags.for the 660 ft mark I still have not had one take the 1010 cat eaven turbos or nos .in longer races thay start to shine but need 1000 ft or better to spool up.then thay are rocking
09-10-2009, 10:00 AM
erza the new 4 stroke Doo's weigh the same as a 2 stroke 800 Polaris or Cat.Put on a aftermarket turbo and they rock.No and I mean no turbo lag.
09-10-2009, 10:12 AM
Well, I am sure the 4 strokes are great and keep getting better, but it seems as though some on here act as though we should scrap all of the 2 strokes. Hey, maybe Obama Bin Ladin will do a cash for 2 strokes program!!
I think the weight is the biggest problem even on the trails, if you push 80 extra pounds around all day for 300+ miles, you will feel it.
As for the cost of oil, that is minimal. You can buy oil cheap if you don't buy Doo,Poo,Yam, or Cat oil. If you are paying $18 a quart for oil, you are just not doing your homework and throwing your money away.
09-10-2009, 10:14 AM
EZRA, find an FST and ride it.
09-10-2009, 10:25 AM
I like propjockeys profile pic.......
09-10-2009, 11:40 AM
FG we do alot of long saddlebag trips and when your surplus oil runs out your
@ the mercy of these remote gas stops where they rob yaa. With a F10 Cat yaa can't run the cheap oil.And they use a Quart 4 every tank of gas.Which equates to about a extra buck on every gallon of gas.Have a nice day.And what ever yaa ride is fine with me.But I'm done with watching my cash go out in 2 stroke smoke.
09-10-2009, 12:13 PM
Read all the mags this year on 4s evaluation weight is not a factor & best sleds for long mile days. Mags are finally embracing 4s sleds & going WOW! This is oppposite all the market sled weight jive of the last 10 years but a well balanced 4s has power to spare & handle great. Don't let a little more weight jade you from trying a new 4s trail sled. Again just not an issue like the 90s 2s triple triples compared to light 2s twins on trails. I also think the new injected 600 2s 120hp class comparo is not apples to apples when 600 2s can be as low as 116hp & 4s so called 120s are almost 130 hp. Riders grab that 4s broad power band throttle & go holy moly WOW not like any 2s 120hp I ever rode. Why?....because 120hp 4s is not 120hp almost 14 hp more than 2s. When 4s advertised as 130hp really 140ish hp. Current 600 injected 2s feel like 500s 2s to me when compared to 2010 so called 120hp 4s engines. New 600 2s class lacks power when compared to so called 120 hp 4s & 120 2s could be at end of life cycle just does not have the ponies. Do OEMS move up to 700 2s to keep up with 4s hp & performance or will the public be happy with 116hp 2s? I know I have 150hp 4s & that is plenty for me. The future is 4s as offers so much more than high strung 2s engines. Yam got it right in 2003 for trail sleds.
09-10-2009, 12:47 PM
A 300 mile day on the trails seems a lot like a 300 mile day in my car…not that fun. If my car ran through an extra dollar worth of oil for every gallon of gas I would be pissed off (what some claim 2 strokes use per gallon). But my car is a utility vehicle, not a recreational vehicle. As a result I and I think most look at expenditures for each class of vehicle in a slightly different manner. Trail, and off trail are not even worth comparing. Off trail, and in the mountains stock 4’s don’t compete with similar priced stock 2’s. That’s not to say you can’t have fun with a 4, you will just need to spend a lot more <font color="ff0000"></font><font color="ff0000"></font><font color="ff0000"></font> on lightweight parts and a turbo. Again my analysis off trail and in the hills only, I think for pounding trail miles a four would be a good call.
09-10-2009, 02:07 PM
It takes a lot of quarts of oil to equal the cost of a turbo.
09-10-2009, 04:00 PM
OK I'M DONE NOW!
44 posts ago I asked the question "would I like the 4 stroke I just bought?" Specifically did not ask which is better, 'cause that is a subjective question which many of you are trying to answer!
I got it...I'm a big middle aged guy who likes to go fast on trails all day long, the only time I go off trail is to stop for lunch! I believe I will like the 4 stroke based on your replies.
after you pick up that z1turbo call D&D and get the hyjacker box push the switch a few times for 210 hp for a day of lake racing.I have read the ext z1turbo is the one to get as far as handeling thay say the long track realy makes that sled outshine the short track
ok 4s 2s what ever rummer in racing circles is cat may dump the dd on some of its HP sleds next year and run a team 2ndary? I hope it is true but it may just be wishfull thinking buy I have heard it from a few pro and semi pro drage racers
09-11-2009, 04:55 AM
But breeeze @ the end of the day I still have my Turbo.And mayb I'll change my handle 2 Rooster.Its been a long day yaa know.
09-12-2009, 12:11 AM
If I was in to riding trails all day long I think a 4-Stroke is best. I rode an Apex and was VERY impressed as far as its trail sled abilities...Not so good off-trail though!
09-12-2009, 08:04 PM
To each there own deep snow the 4 strokes suck just trail riding 300 to 400 miles a day good,good gas mileage yes. A straight holeshot across a lake my 800 Dragon will kill your Yamaha. High speed trail riding your 4 stroke will be in the trees trying to keep up with me.
The 4 strokes and 2 strokes each have a place depends on how you ride what you might want to pick.
I like 2 strokes for me I drive fast love off trail deep snow, drift jumping, fast trail riding, going fast across lakes!
09-12-2009, 08:28 PM
Indyxcr, there are many that would disagree with you trail handling assessment of some four strokes vs. your dragon. Everyone has an opinion, but lets keep in mind the trail is not a race track.
say what you will I was just at hay days and stood on the rail of most all 4strokes and tryed to pull over like carving a corner around a tree not one wanted to lift a ski with ease.but I still want that 144 z1turbo for a river lake runner
09-12-2009, 09:48 PM
I rode John's xtx last year on two geat powder weekends, very easy to carve with.
09-13-2009, 02:44 AM
09-13-2009, 03:13 AM
I drive thru the trees all the time with my 4 strokers. Unless you can't move your fat ars from one side to the other in time, there are no issues.
Standing on the rail in a tent in the summer on cement is not the same as standing on a moving sled in soft powder. You can move the sled in either direction by shifting weight to the soft side and causing the high side to lift and the soft side to dip. Skis track and angle of attack is what counts carving. I don't jump so can't say what happens there.
When I do stick, doesn't matter which elephant you have it is work gett'n out.
09-13-2009, 08:57 PM
4 stroke is the way to go althought they may seem heavy they dont feel it im 15 and i can carve my dads attak eaiser then my moms polaris 700. We ride in the kingston plains all the time and no problem manuvering throught the tree up hills or just simply riding
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