Attn: WI CLUBS

[ezra]

Gas taxes in WI are some of the highest in the country, and I would not be in favor of continuing to allocate those dollars to trail funds.
Any way you slice it, user fee's will be going nowhere but up (in WI), in the future.

why not you are playing a gas tax when you fill your snowmobile why do you want that tax to go anywherebut trail you use it on

[fusion]

Ez.....you could cut the WI gas tax by 75% and it would still be too high when compared to AL, TN, MS, ect.
Taxes in this state are too high - period
Any other questions, let me know.

[renegade]

They way it works out with the gas tax formula, it ends up being double the registation amount that the trail fund gets. So a $35 registration sticker puts $70 into the trails fund. So if you have a snowmobile, register it, the money gets used on the trails. The worst thing you can do is wait for snow and not end up ever buying one. Wisconsin is already starved for money for trails. And as far as going state funded trail system. Not a good idea. Keep the government out of it as much as possible! If you went up north after the big storm 2 weeks ago and expected smooth trails, get real. Its unrealistic. It was too warm on thursday to groom, and there was too much traffic, if it was groomed, to last.

[witz]

Gas taxes in WI are some of the highest in the country, and I would not be in favor of continuing to allocate those dollars to trail funds.
Any way you slice it, user fee's will be going nowhere but up (in WI), in the future.

Fusion, you need to get your facts straight. 90s is 100% correct. The funded trails in WI are 100% user funded. Nothing comes out of the taxpayer's pocket to fund them. The gas tax on X number of gallons per registered sled is transferred to the snowmobile trail fund. The state assumes that each registered sled uses X number of gallons per year (I forget exactly what that number is). Regardless of what the actual gas tax is, only a small percentage is used for the snowmobile fund. It's a user funded system. The more registered sleds there are, the more money that goes into the fund from registration dollars and from the gas tax formula.

This is something our worthless legislators in Madison can't seem to get through their thick skulls about CAP/STEP. The AWSC is asking to increase fees paid by those who use the system, not the general taxpayer. The clubs desperately need money to cover trail maintenance, improvement and grooming.

Truth is, we have it cheap here in WI. $30 every 2 years for registration is a joke. Michigan requires registration and the $45 yearly permit. The Canadian provinces are the same way...registration and a yearly trail pass, which is around $225 in Ontario.

[bearrassler]

Maybe the Wisconsin snowmobile association should look into what is done in MN. We have to apply every year for our grant, it is a contract between the DNR and a snowmobile club with a government sponsor. The funding is based on your trail miles and the area of the state you are in. In NW Minnesota we get 357.00 per mile, while in the Arrowhead region they get 657.00 per mile, and in southern Minnesota it is 282.00 per mile. We are expected to have our trail signed and brushed, and groom when conditions are appropriate. On years like this (we only groomed twice) we still get the full amount of the grant, 357.00 per mile, so we can pay all of our trail and groomer expenses and save some money, but in heavy snow years we are still expected to do all the grooming so we may have to use some of our saved money or raise some in other ways. It has worked out good in our area.

[rocky367]

@bearrassler, I like the sounds of that how Minnesota handles it. I've discussed how they do that with folks in Houston County across from me and it seems to work for them as they know they will get x amount every year and need to work with that. Seems over here in Wis. that some clubs live on the supplemental to make up for their losses and it becomes a gravy train. I like the way the AWSC is trying to change things by using Cap/Step but I see issues that I don't like and I hope I am wrong with those issues.

[RVR RNR]

Maybe the Wisconsin snowmobile association should look into what is done in MN. We have to apply every year for our grant, it is a contract between the DNR and a snowmobile club with a government sponsor. The funding is based on your trail miles and the area of the state you are in. In NW Minnesota we get 357.00 per mile, while in the Arrowhead region they get 657.00 per mile, and in southern Minnesota it is 282.00 per mile. We are expected to have our trail signed and brushed, and groom when conditions are appropriate. On years like this (we only groomed twice) we still get the full amount of the grant, 357.00 per mile, so we can pay all of our trail and groomer expenses and save some money, but in heavy snow years we are still expected to do all the grooming so we may have to use some of our saved money or raise some in other ways. It has worked out good in our area.

THIS IS WHAT WE NEED IN WIS!!!!! A system like this would be fair for all and eliminate the worries that come with a low/no snow year like this one. It sucks having to find "creative ways" to use up our money so we can afford new[er] equipment.

[groomerdriver]

To get a crystal clear picture as to how the trails are funded in Wisconsin, check out this link:

http://www.awsc.org/Dynamic_Menu/Tra...intenance.aspx

Hopefully this will clear up a number of inaccurate statements in this thread.

[ezra]

Ez.....you could cut the WI gas tax by 75% and it would still be too high when compared to AL, TN, MS, ect.
Taxes in this state are too high - period
Any other questions, let me know.

I agree taxes are to high any place in the USA. but do you think if the state decides to charge you 100 bucks for a trail pass a yr they will take the 70bucks per trail pass sold out of the gas tax fund and lower the gas tax buy that mutch?
you know better than that .I am sure it was like pulling teath to get the money form the gas tax fund in the first place.you are using the gas in your sled you are and will continue to pay the gas tax for the gas in your sled so why would you want that money to go anyplace other than the trail's.
OK if WI or MN would do a expensive sticker then exempt off road toys with permits from paying a gas sales tax I am all for it.
but you that will never happen what will happen is they will charge more for a sticker not give you a gas tax break and not give the tax you are paying for filling your toy to the trails and then give your trail sticker money to the public workers union as pay back for what I dont know but sound like more the way it will work in a few yrs .
that is unless you get your friends and fammily to wake up and support more guys like my HERO Gov Walker

[mspease]

I'm no expert yet, but I'm trying to learn, as I'm being recruited to be our club president. I just read the other day where only the first 50 gallons of gas per snowmobile registered goes to the clubs in WI.

[jr37]

I'm no expert yet, but I'm trying to learn, as I'm being recruited to be our club president. I just read the other day where only the first 50 gallons of gas per snowmobile registered goes to the clubs in WI.

That is correct. There is a bunch of good info on the AWSC website. Also, blu2u2 may be able to answer any question you have, I believe he is a AWSC director.

[mspease]

jr37,

I will keep blu2u2 in mind and spend some time on the AWSC website this summer. Thanks for the info! I think it's only a matter of time before I run for president of our club, but I want to be prepared first and not sure if I will be ready by August. Up until now, I've attended some of our meetings and I've been grooming for 4 years and helping clear trails in the fall, but I need to know a lot more!

[jr37]

mspease,
If your county snowmobile association has monthly meetings, that should be a good source of info. also. The AWSC convention is coming up at the end of the month, that may be of interest also. Although the morning session can at times be a little boring, some useful info is there to be had.

[mspease]

I have attended one county meeting this year and hope to do more. I will check my schedule against when the convention is and see if I can make it. Thanks!

[blu2u2]

FUNDING THE SNOWMOBILE PROGRAM


Source of Revenue: Gas Tax

The revenue that goes into Wisconsin’s snowmobile trail program comes from the registration paid on snowmobiles, along with the Wisconsin State Gas Tax (that year’s tax on 50 gallons of gas per snowmobile) plus a “40% Tourism Factor” on 50 gallons of gas tax per snowmobile.

The “40% Tourism Factor” is:

50 gallons of gas

Multiplied by Wisconsin state gas tax

Multiplied by 40%

Multiplied by the number of registered snowmobiles in Wisconsin on the last day of March each year.


Source of Revenue: Non-Resident Fee

Revenue is also received from a Non‐Resident Trail Pass (user fee) that is paid by each rider using our trail system without a current Wisconsin Snowmobile Registration on the vehicle.


WHERE DOES THE MONEY GO?

The majority of snowmobile funds go to our trail system. By Wisconsin State Law, we have a priority system outlining how money is spent on our trail program:

Priority 1 – Maintenance of Existing Trails

All trails that are accepted in the funded program can receive up to $250 per mile per year to be used to maintain them. Payments are only made on actual expenses so on a “no snow year,” the $250 of expenses may not be incurred.

Expenses in this category include everything it takes to set up the trail, grooming and taking out the trail in the spring. (Examples: labor, signs, brushing, marking, any soil preparation such as bulldozing, cultimulching, disking, etc., bridge repairs, and gates). Also, short‐term (annual) acquisition, where paid. Groomers are paid by the hour according to the class (size) the machine fits into. Rates per hour on labor and equipment are published annually by the DNR.

Funding The Snowmobile Program,
Page 2


To include a trail in the State Funded Program, one must work with the County (coordinator) to establish this trail. The County must then apply for funding from the DNR.

No snowmobile organization can receive a grant for funded trails – only the County may do so.

Priority 2 – Club Signs

The snowmobile program will provide free signs to clubs for use on any snowmobile trail that is not in the funded program, as long as that trail is open to the public.

Priority 3 – Bridge Rehabilitation

If bridges on funded trails are in need of repair or rebuilding, those projects are funded using this source. Minor bridge repair can be included in Trail Maintenance.

Priority 4 – Route Sign Requests

A village, city or town may establish an ordinance that allows a snowmobile to be operated on a public road. This is called a snowmobile route.

The city, village or town can receive payment for the original snowmobile route (green) signs out of this category.

Priority 5 – Trail Rehabilitation

All major enhancements to an existing trail that make it safer or better can be funded using this source.

Priority 6 – Development

When there is money left over from the first five Priorities, it ends up here.

Basically, there are four components to Development:


Component 1: Mandatory Relocation

This is when a trail has to be moved or relocated because of loss of access.

The funding to develop a replacement trail is provided through this source.

[blu2u2]

Since I was called on in this thread I will give my 2 cents....

The clubs in WI need something to bring more money into the system. Not including this season; each of the last couple of years there has been a shortage of $1.5 million to $2 million each year! That is why the supplement has been in the 50 to 65 percent range. What type of operation can run with more money going out than what is coming in?

How many of you got to ride the "wash board" trails from the big leap year storm in Northern WI this year? I understand that most of the problem was too much heavy/wet snow at once so the groomers couldn't groom. However, unless something changes in the next couple of years clubs might not be able to maintain the trails.

Is the CAP/STEP Program the answer... Yes, if it ever happens??? Are WI residents paying a lot less than our neighboring (MN & MI) states to own and operate a snowmobile???...YES! Will the AWSC ever look at a Plan B since the CAP/STEP is not looking to get passed???

The AWSC Convention, which will be held in Manitowoc in 2 weeks, has a General Meeting that starts at 9:00 on Sat. You don't have to be a director or rep. to attend.

[jr37]

blu2u2,
Thanks for your input, I hope you don't mind me mentioning you on this topic. I knew you would have facts

Also, why is it so difficult to get the CAP/STEP program passed? It seems like a no-brainer to me. Is the arguement over administration or what?

[fusion]

Fusion, you need to get your facts straight. 90s is 100% correct. The funded trails in WI are 100% user funded. Nothing comes out of the taxpayer's pocket to fund them. The gas tax on X number of gallons per registered sled is transferred to the snowmobile trail fund. The state assumes that each registered sled uses X number of gallons per year (I forget exactly what that number is). Regardless of what the actual gas tax is, only a small percentage is used for the snowmobile fund. It's a user funded system. The more registered sleds there are, the more money that goes into the fund from registration dollars and from the gas tax formula.

This is something our worthless legislators in Madison can't seem to get through their thick skulls about CAP/STEP. The AWSC is asking to increase fees paid by those who use the system, not the general taxpayer. The clubs desperately need money to cover trail maintenance, improvement and grooming.

Truth is, we have it cheap here in WI. $30 every 2 years for registration is a joke. Michigan requires registration and the $45 yearly permit. The Canadian provinces are the same way...registration and a yearly trail pass, which is around $225 in Ontario.

So fine, raise the permit fee's, but leave the GD gas taxes alone!
I'm one of those that say they should suspend the gas tax entirely with the oil companies gouging us right now. Do we have to tax everything in this god forsaken, tax he!l of a state?
Whatever way you describe it, whether it's per gallon sold or directly allocated, fact is, some amount of gas tax is being funneled to the snowmobile maintenance system.
The problem is, many people such as yourself view "their" piece of the gas tax allocation as being insignificant, but then all those special interest, incremental amounts add up to some of the largest gas taxes in the US. The reason taxes go up and get out of control is incremental-ism - just like the US debt.
And make no mistake, snowmobiling as it relates to tourism in this state, DEFINES special interest group. And I am part of that special interest, but I don't want everybody else in the state to pay for my snowmobiling fixation each winter. For 2 potential months of fun, I should insist some other fool pay for it?

This has been talked about for years, but when will somebody get serious and actually make all snowmobile owners join a club? Funnel that money to trail maintenance.

And I'm not going to go back and read the thread again, but whomever suggests the reason the trails were not groomed on 29-FEB was because of lack of funding is being disingenuous and using excessive rhetoric to make their point.
With the winter we had, I have a hard time believing the clubs ran out of groomer funding on that date.
We had how many weeks without sufficient snow to groom? That was money saved by the clubs right there.

[jr37]

The CAP/STEP program would be a great benefit to us all. Join a club or pay more to ride your sled. All the extra funds go to the snowmobile program, we all win. What is the hang-up? This is a win-win situation, and it doesn't affect all taxpayers.

[blu2u2]

So fine, raise the permit fee's, but leave the GD gas taxes alone!
I'm one of those that say they should suspend the gas tax entirely with the oil companies gouging us right now. Do we have to tax everything in this god forsaken, tax he!l of a state?
Whatever way you describe it, whether it's per gallon sold or directly allocated, fact is, some amount of gas tax is being funneled to the snowmobile maintenance system.
The problem is, many people such as yourself view "their" piece of the gas tax allocation as being insignificant, but then all those special interest, incremental amounts add up to some of the largest gas taxes in the US. The reason taxes go up and get out of control is incremental-ism - just like the US debt.
And make no mistake, snowmobiling as it relates to tourism in this state, DEFINES special interest group. And I am part of that special interest, but I don't want everybody else in the state to pay for my snowmobiling fixation each winter. For 2 potential months of fun, I should insist some other fool pay for it?

This has been talked about for years, but when will somebody get serious and actually make all snowmobile owners join a club? Funnel that money to trail maintenance.

And I'm not going to go back and read the thread again, but whomever suggests the reason the trails were not groomed on 29-FEB was because of lack of funding is being disingenuous and using excessive rhetoric to make their point.
With the winter we had, I have a hard time believing the clubs ran out of groomer funding on that date.
We had how many weeks without sufficient snow to groom? That was money saved by the clubs right there.

Fusion if you read the post the I wrote about the poor trails after the big leap-year storm it clearly states that the main reason for the poor trails was due to the large amount of heavy/wet snow in a short time period. I never said the the clubs didn't groom because of a lack of funds. I did say that IF the system doesn't change then in the FUTURE it could be possible that clubs might not be able to maintain the trails.

[rocky367]

The shortfalls in money is really going to bite the clubs in a few years because of bridges needing to be built, trails that have been or been discussed not being built or funded and other activities that are not being funded. I know for our local groomer operations that we bought two tractors over the last few years due to the decreased cost to operate and we can rent them out, that is one way we can afford to have units to use for grooming and not because of money we get from the state for grooming. I'm thinking groups will have to get smart on how they find extra funds for running their program. I see maybe clubs starting to combine operations and covering larger areas in that more funds will come into the one group vs two groups buying a groomer each and signs and spreading dollars out.

Cap/Step, one issue I have is that even though it will bring members into the clubs we have no way to make sure those people work on trails and be active. Sure, it looks good on paper for the AWSC to say that now due to Cap/Step they have more members but are those people going to be active or are they just joining to save money? And I'm hoping that all the clubs will be even on membership fees not one that is say way up north that is twenty dollars and my club is 30 and folks from here join the club up north as that's a better deal.

[groomerdriver]

.....but I don't want everybody else in the state to pay for my snowmobiling fixation each winter. For 2 potential months of fun, I should insist some other fool pay for it?

Dude, did you not read how the gas tax is calculated? Before you make statements like this, get a clue!

Why do you other guys waste your time with this guy?

[snocatmike]

First off I hate to write but I donot like step-cap the way it is. At one time are club had over 300 members and only 10 people worked on the trail should the 290 have got a break? Who desides where the money the club gets is spent the club next to us has 160 members and 0 miles of trail donated therer extra money to the food pantry 0.00 to the trail. Then do all clubs get a break as hunting club fishing club car club?

[blu2u2]

blu2u2,
Thanks for your input, I hope you don't mind me mentioning you on this topic. I knew you would have facts

Also, why is it so difficult to get the CAP/STEP program passed? It seems like a no-brainer to me. Is the arguement over administration or what?

No problem...you got me "off the bench".

I feel that the main reason why the CAP/STEP program is not being passed is due to the fact that the majority of residents in WI that have registered snowmobiles are not club members....the term "majority rules" comes into play. The ratio is something like 1 to 4 depending on the exact number of registered snowmobiles (this number is down about 40% this year due to the unfavorable weather) and the number of sleds that each owner has. Note that I am using 200,000 as the # of registered sleds and 25,000 for the number of current members in the AWSC. If the average snowmobile owner has 2 sleds, this how the 1 to 4 ratio (25%) was calculated. Since the majority (75%+/-) of the snowmobilers in WI are not club members they most likely would not be in favor of having to pay $20 more per year than what the club members are paying.... Politicians tend to listen to their constituents!
The following video explains just how the trails in WI are managed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTV_apTJU2M
For the record I am only trying to state MY opinion on this.

[rocky367]

Blu2u2, I should state that my opinions are of mine also and not of the club that I am President of or the Groomer Association that I'm with also. I feel that SnoCatMike hit the the nail on the head with what I feel is there with CAP/STEP along with the folks who don't register sleds until we have snow, currently you can register and print off on the internet and ride within five minutes, I'm curious as to how that will be handled especially with going to every year registration.

We have digressed from the real topic and that is how to properly fund for years like this where there is no snow but then we need to be planning for next season where we could spend 10,000 in diesel fuel and end up not having the funds because we have spent our money paying for equipment, signage, insurance and whatever else we need to open trails up. Yes, we have funding and are guaranteed a certain amount, but it seems every year lately we are running a deficit in the organizations I'm in and we have to keep doing fundraisers to make up the difference, but on a year like this we are now running a bit behind because of the setup.

I'm enjoying this topic and loving the banter if you ignore the ones that don't have their stuff correct. This is a topic that I keep coming back to when we discuss our finances locally.