View Poll Results: What should be done to get more money into the trail system in WI?

Voters
148. You may not vote on this poll
  • Try to get the CAP/STEP Program passed again

    48 32.43%
  • Raise the registration fee for ALL WI residents

    33 22.30%
  • Create a required trail sticker for anyone who rides in WI

    55 37.16%
  • Other... (Please send me a PM or post your ideas)

    12 8.11%
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Appleton, WI
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    Default WI Trail Funding Poll

    Would like to get input for the lack of trail funds that WI clubs face.

  2. #2
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    Dec 2009
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    Darboy,Wi
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    Default

    I would rather pay more for registration. Please no stickers!!

  3. #3
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    Dec 2009
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    Neenah, Wisconsin. About 30 minutes south of Green Bay's Lambeau Field.
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    Default

    Guess I would vote for the CAP/STEP. My reasoning is that by joining a club you get something in return along with a discount on the registration. Registration only, you get an ugly sticker to put on your machine, the same for a Trail Sticker. By joining a club you meet new snowmobilers and there are more riding opportunities with like-minded people.
    Adding Fee's is a slippery slope. Politicians are known for establishing Fee's and then raising the rates on those Fee's on a regular basis.

    What's the driving force behind the shortage of funds? Fewer machines, poor economy, government waste? Anyone know?

  4. #4
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    Dec 2009
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    Marathon,WI
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    Default

    I kinda like the idea of the CAP/STEP program. I realize that club memberships will not increase that much, but it is a good way of getting a little something from the "freeloaders". This program gets money from all sledders and sort of rewards those of us that do the all work for those that don't contribute any other way.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Salem, Wi
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    176

    Default

    Voted other, I think Cap/Step is just a band aid fix and a change needs to be made in the way the whole program runs. What is the fix? Not sure, I like the contract idea Minnesota has but I'm not sure that is a fix either as with the current system you pretty much know what your base funding is. To me Cap/Step focuses way too much on getting people in to a club and the AWSC and seems more political than anything, I just don't see people joining and coming out to help work trails. Will Cap/Step get my club more money? Most likely not as we have several larger clubs in the area that seem to draw people.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Portage Wi
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    189

    Default

    Voted other

    If people who use the trails should pay more then so should the bussiness that profit from snowmobilers. Most bars/resteraunts/hotels up north have trails going to them. Would it be to much for them to contribute to the fund to help keep there customers happy and on groomed trails? Im sure some allready do contribute but were talking about it so lets face the facts that its not enough. Down south here in even a good year they groom once or twice a week if were lucky. Up north they groom dailly. Why is it they groom dailly up north?? Sledding up north is about $$$$ down here its about fun. If i pay more $$ a year does that mean i will get dailly groomed trails down here? I doubt that. What about the years the trails dont open down by me do i get a refund?

    Im tired of paying more for less. I dont go sledding with the mindset of im entitled to perfect trails all day everyday. my mindset is you get what you pay for. I think the registration in wisconsin is just the right $$$ amount considering the years we dont even get to ride trails around our home. Maybe its time to draw a line across the state and if you ride north of the line you have to buy a "up north" sticker. Seems to me say vilas county uses alot for money grooming and trail matinece then my county of columbia.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Appleton, WI
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gary_in_neenah View Post
    Guess I would vote for the CAP/STEP. My reasoning is that by joining a club you get something in return along with a discount on the registration. Registration only, you get an ugly sticker to put on your machine, the same for a Trail Sticker. By joining a club you meet new snowmobilers and there are more riding opportunities with like-minded people.
    Adding Fee's is a slippery slope. Politicians are known for establishing Fee's and then raising the rates on those Fee's on a regular basis.

    What's the driving force behind the shortage of funds? Fewer machines, poor economy, government waste? Anyone know?
    The following link shows the income and expense for the 2009-2010 season in WI. NOTE the trail improvement (bridges, new trails, ect. were NOT factored in so this is why it only shows the $450,000+/- shortage!

    http://www.awsc.org/LinkClick.aspx?f...id=100&mid=900
    Last edited by blu2u2; 03-23-2012 at 12:36 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    662

    Default

    Other

    Not much can be done. Raise sticker price for few or hope more are bought. I dont remember exact numbers for MI but prob similar in WI.

    300,000 registered but only 160,000 trail stickers bought. I know I had 2 sleds legal registered and bought 0 stickers. Heck one has been sold but still registered thru 2013.
    Last edited by chords; 03-23-2012 at 02:29 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Roscoe, Il.
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    239

    Default

    Raise the trail pass price,

  10. #10
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    Dec 2009
    Location
    Phelps, WI
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    6,480

    Default Tread Lightly

    From Skip's update email today this blew my mind with snowmobile traffic so heavy in UPMI this season. Maybe MI $45 trail permit kept some people in WI? 30,000 less MI trail permits gets my attention & tells me wide spread Midwest snow would be dreadful for UPMI. YIKES!! IMO tread lightly with trail permit costs as these costs can be straw that breaks the back of the snowmobiler. To me do more with less or keep costs the same.

    "With the way this past winter was and how our snowmobile season keeps getting shorter, it's important for a Tourism-based economy to diversify. One part of the tourism diversification is to provide an inter-connecting ORV Trail System. With ORV riders outnumbering snowmobiles, and the ORV Riding season being much longer, we need to 'tap' into this Multi-Million Dollar sport," commented Mi-TRALE President Skip Schulz.

    It was at the latest DNR joint meeting between the Western and Eastern Citizens Advisory Council that the DNR reported Snowmobile Trail Stickers decreased this past winter by over 30,000. The DNR claims this decrease was due to the poor snow season. Lodging owners in many parts of the Western Upper Peninsula report that the lack of snow in Wisconsin and Minnesota actually helped bring snowmobilers to this region.
    Last edited by whitedust; 03-23-2012 at 12:44 PM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Eleva,WI
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    339

    Default

    The way I look at cap step is the increase is needed, and if you want to get your money back, you can join a club for free. Yes it is political! The more poeple we have in the awsc the more power the SNOWMOBILER has in madison. Too many people think the awsc has an entity that will not affect them. This is not true. There are a lot of people who don't care if snowmobiling exists or not, and those that would like to see it go. The more people that are in the awsc the better. What is the best way to kill the sport of snowmobiling if you were a leftist environmental activist? Tell your politicians to vote no for any bills that increase trail funds, that way the bridges and infastructure deteriorate to the point where they have to close! This is politcal, no way around it. Either you play the game or lose!
    As far as the money dispersment is concerned, I think a system with a combination of MN and WI would be the answer. So much a mile guaranteed so counties can buy equipment without worry, then flexible type of a situation if you dont groom that money can go to a county who is, much like supplemental.
    It is obvious why the increase is needed. Insurance has doubled, equipment costs have rose considerably, and the most important fuel! There is no cutting costs to be done without cutting back on grooming or closing trails, and nobody wants this I would hope. In my opinion, it should be $80 a year to non club members, $50 a year for non active club member, and $30 for active. And all it would take to be active would be 8 hours a year, not to much to ask. I dont care if you do physical labor, or write thank you cards to landowners, but something! Too many people don't do anything. And if getting involved is not your cup of tea, then the extra money is your "small" part.

  12. #12
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    Dec 2009
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    Marathon,WI
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    Default

    My understanding of the CAP/STEP program is that all the money will go to the general fund, to fund new bridges, unfunded trails, new trails, supplemental funds, etc. I don't believe that each individual club will be entitled to more funds. Correct me if I am wrong.

    I would hope that unfunded trails would get funded, who wants to groom a trail for free. And new bridges, I don't know. WI DNR mandates for bridges is insane. Clubs are spending way to much on contracted bridges that could be built by the club itself. This past season our club had a 80' bridge installed for $80 grand, that is NUTS. But we didn't have any choice. We probably could have done it ourselves for $5 grand, that would be an extra $75,000 for trail maintenance. There is alot that could be done better for our system, but I don't have many answers.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Vermilion Ohio
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    15

    Default

    I think the people that have there sleds registered in wi. should also have to buy trail permit. You always read on this site about people from other states registering there sleds in wi. because it is cheaper and they wont have to pay for trail permit. I feel if you ride trails; pay for sticker.

  14. #14
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    Dec 2009
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    close to the edge.
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    most of the under 30 people dont join clubs not because of the work involved in brushing and what not but most of the clubs I am in are more or less run by the moldy oldy we do it this way because that is the way it has always been 1 sit in and it is clear what is going on.
    thing is the majority of the work gets done buy the say 45 and under crew the same crews that don't bother with the club trips or BBQ etc etc just there to get it done and avoid the old politics .opposite of what you would expect but what I see in the 2 clubs I am in .

    I can think of 8 guys not including me off the top of my head who dont ride in MN or trails if it can be avoided but are always there for groming marking brushing fundraising.
    I do it more or less so when I get to old to drive a snomobile and have to move to riding one we still may have some trails to ride.

  15. #15

    Default

    i agree with arctive. i do not mind paying my share of the bill but everyone should have pay there share too.i pay to reg. my sled this yr and it never left the shed.

  16. #16
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    I will 3nd that I have my sled reg in MN and some yrs have not bought a trail sticker knowing it would not get used in MN.I I buy a new sled I do buy the 3 yr sticker it is also a convinence thing.
    I think every state should offer a 3 or 4 yr option with a few bucks off.
    I will admit I have taken the windshiel of of a sled when selling and putting it on the new one I bought but hat it had a 3yrMN MI CO WI can you blame me

  17. #17

    Default

    so what if we did this with autos? pay twice.... thats stupid that is why you register isnt it?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff View Post
    so what if we did this with autos? pay twice.... thats stupid that is why you register isnt it?
    well with auto you do pay to register the title in to your name then tabes yr after yr and in my state the cost is based on the yr and value of the Auto

  19. #19
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    Dec 2009
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    Appleton, WI
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    Thanks to everyone who voted and made their suggestions for this thread. With the AWSC Spring Convention this weekend I am sure this will be a HOT topic!
    When I started this thread one week ago I was really hoping to have more than 39 total votes. Maybe the end of the unfavorable season and the location of the thread prevented more votes???

  20. #20
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    I think there should be no increse in funding or fees untill the DNR from any state in question realese a FULL budget including individual payroll.
    then we can see where the cuts need to be hacked out.
    in MN over the last 10 yrs the DNR budget has gone up over 50mill

  21. #21
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    Dec 2009
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    Appleton, WI
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    ezra, please see the link that I posted above!

    Quote Originally Posted by blu2u2 View Post
    The following link shows the income and expense for the 2009-2010 season in WI. NOTE the trail improvement (bridges, new trails, ect. were NOT factored in so this is why it only shows the $450,000+/- shortage!

    http://www.awsc.org/LinkClick.aspx?f...id=100&mid=900

  22. #22
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    yeah I got that budget I want to see a full DNR budget with a full break down of money spent.
    it will never happen but I want to see it well it could happen in WI if Walker stays in for a few more terms he will demand full break downs of all tentacles of government spending.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Grand Forks, ND
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    I did not vote because I have not ridden in Wisconsin since the 70's, but I looked at how your trails are funded. The club that I am in grooms in two different states, MN and ND, and both have good and bad points. In ND we only have about 17,600 registered sleds and under 3000 miles of trails. Our registration is 40.00 for two years, and the state takes out $4.00 for administration and turns the other 36.00 over to our state association. We only get gas tax based on 30 gallons per sled per year, so our funding is some of the lowest per mile in the US. The good part is that the state only takes $2.00 per year and the rest goes to the State Association which only has 3 employees so our costs are low and the state association runs the grooming program. The state owns most of the groomers and updates them with RTP money when available, and volunteers run them. We can't groom as much as we would like because of low numbers but we don't waste much money on administration. I think you know how MN works and it is good because the club knows what it is getting at the start of the year, but the DNR takes quite a bit for administration.It looks like WS administration costs are high also. I think we are all going to have to try to get as much out of our money as possible because I see it getting tougher instead of better in the future, things like running our groomers an extra year, trying to get more volunteers (that is going to be tough), and taking all the waste out of the grooming programs that we can.

  24. #24
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    Dec 2010
    Location
    Muskego, WI
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    395

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    The CAP/STEP program basically screws people like me that work nights, I can never go to club meetings and I'm not going to take a vacation day for a 1 hour meeting. And since most of the clubs around here charge you an inactive club member "surcharge" (because I can't make the meetings), I'm not going to join a club. I have been a club member before when I worked days, and it was good and beneficial, but times have changed. This program forces me to pay a penalty because of reasons I can't control? What BS!

    But I would go with raise the registration a little, and require out of staters to buy a trail pass for the year, like everyone else does.

  25. #25
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    Appleton, WI
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    Default

    ...
    Last edited by blu2u2; 04-01-2012 at 08:07 PM.

  26. #26
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    Marathon,WI
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    blu2u2, how did the weekend go? I had to work Saturday, couldn't make it this year. Any new info., or is it still the "Good ol Boys" club rules. I really think we need young blood in charge, but who will step up? Hope you had a good weekend. Wish I could have been there.

  27. #27
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    Dec 2009
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    Appleton, WI
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    jr37, I sent you a PM on this. Nothing new to report on the CAP/STEP. The leadership wants to hold off until Jan. and then make a decision on what path the AWSC will take. This was my last Directors Meeting as a Director as I have too much on my plate right now. I will still be involved as the County Rep. However, if things continue the way they have been going the last 2-3 years; I am not sure how long I will be involved with the AWSC....

  28. #28
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    Dec 2009
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    Waukesha, Wi.
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    If the Cap/Step hasn't passed the last couple trys, what makes anyone think it will a third time? What has been holding it up?

  29. #29
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    Feb 2011
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    Arbor Vitae
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    The boys and girls in Madison wont let us raise the the Wisconsin resident stickers. We may be able to get a raise in the non-resident sticker. After all Minnesota gets $45 for there pass. But the real money is in the gas tax. It is based on a sled using 50 gal of gas per year. That sales tax brings in over 4 million into the snowmobile fund. Get that changed to 100 gal.per sled. and our funding is in much better shape. We could raise the maintence from $250 to $300 to help out the southern clubs. And raise the $750 cap to $1000 to help out the northern clubs. And if the DOT doesnt want to gives us more of our tax money tell them to stop giving grants to user groops that dont pay any gas tax.

  30. #30
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    Dec 2009
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    Appleton, WI
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    This is what I stated at the Directors Meeting at the Spring Convention this year....

    The following is the opinion of both the Outagamie County Snowmobile Alliance and myself.
    The CAP/STEP Program sounds wonderful on paper as it would bring in much needed funds and increase club memberships. However, what looks good on paper doesn’t always work in reality. Last fall at the workshop I stood up and played “devil’s advocate”. I was and still am on the fence with the program. I agree with the United We Trail Divided We Fail Slogan. However, clubs can’t continue to operate if they are losing money every year. The current system is broken! When will the AWSC take off their blinders and see that until the majority of the snowmobilers in WI join a club; the CAP/STEP Program will likely continue to FAIL! Politicians tend to listen to their constituents. How many times does one hit a brick wall before they realize that they need to change their course?
    The Executive Director asked what are we going to do about our image/membership…shouldn’t the AWSC be more concerned with how can the clubs survive operating in the RED!
    The Outagamie County Alliance asked that the AWSC look into doubling the registration fees for all to pay. How can the non-club members complain that they are being treated unfairly if everyone has to pay more? Hasn’t the price of just about everything increased since the last time the snowmobile registration in WI was increased???Compared to our neighbors in MI and MN; WI is a very inexpensive state to snowmobile in! Paying $30 per year to snowmobile in the GREATEST SNOWMOBILEING STATE in the United States is a bargain!

  31. #31
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    Dec 2009
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    West Salem, Wi
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    Well said! Exactly my feelings and great to hear that you stood up and said what you did, unfortunately the AWSC won't listen I feel.

  32. #32
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    Eleva,WI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat600 View Post
    The CAP/STEP program basically screws people like me that work nights, I can never go to club meetings and I'm not going to take a vacation day for a 1 hour meeting. And since most of the clubs around here charge you an inactive club member "surcharge" (because I can't make the meetings), I'm not going to join a club. I have been a club member before when I worked days, and it was good and beneficial, but times have changed. This program forces me to pay a penalty because of reasons I can't control? What BS!

    But I would go with raise the registration a little, and require out of staters to buy a trail pass for the year, like everyone else does.
    This sounds a little bs to me. Not trying to pick on you, but our club has swing shift workers, over the road truck drivers, plumbers who work crazy hours, etc. Sure they can't always come to the meetings, but that doesn't mean they can't be active. I doubt your local club is marking or brushing at night. No reason someone can't find the time to work a saturday or sunday on the trails in the fall or the spring. Doing work for a snowmobile club is no differant than getting your sled ready to ride or summerizing it in the spring. It used to be just a part of owning a snowmobile. That is what is lost in all of this. I do think it is BS that a club would charge a surcharge for a inactive member, but I also think its BS if you are not at the meeting you can't get a text, email, or a call where to meet on a saturday to mark a trail.

  33. #33
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    Dec 2009
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    West Salem, Wi
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    I've done the texting, postcards, emails and phone calls to get people out and it is my opinion that after all that and they still don't show up to meetings or help with trailwork then they just don't want to help the club. Those are the folks that will just increase from people being dragged into a club, I think if someone snowmobiles chances are they know about clubs so there is no excuse to not join we just don't need to force them to join we as a group need better ways to bring people into our clubs.
    Funding is the big issue, not bringing more people into clubs, I think once trails start closing or not open due to lack of people to work that things for clubs will change. However, we need to get funding to support the trail operations and how we do that is the key.

  34. #34
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    Dec 2009
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    I live near Indianapolis and primarily ride out of Vilas County (from a relative's place North of Eagle River). I register my sled in Wisconsin since I never ride it in Indiana. The cost to ride in Wisconsin seems very cheap to me for how well the trails are maintained in that general area. I don't know what the answer is because riding in Southern Wisconsin is going to be much different than Northern Wisconsin, and it might be difficult to get much of an increase out of Southern Wisconsin riders. Perhaps a solution is to offer two different Wisconsin permits - one for the more Southern Counties only and one for the entire state. I always thought Michigan should do this as well, but they obviously have more of a natural split. For example they could charge $25 for the lower peninsula only or $45 for the whole state.

  35. #35
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    Exactly! People either want to or don't want to. Cap/Step would of funded the snowmobile program and rewarded people who do the work, not penalize the people who don't want to, but the majority don't see it that way. I do care what the bill is called, we need more money, cap/step would of done this and at the same time maybe bring people to into clubs to work a little, but sure doesn't penalize anyone.

  36. #36
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    With Hay Days less than 2 weeks away... I thought now might be a good time to refresh this thread. Thanks to everyone who has voted on this!

  37. #37
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    I am begining to think that I am "beating a dead horse" here... Either this poll is in the wrong location or maybe only 65 viewers/voters have strong feelings for this topic. I understand that most clubs didn't run short on funding last season due to the poor winter snowfall amounts in WI. Maybe if the state sees another year like we had 2-3 years ago when the entire state had good snow this topic would be more popular???

  38. #38
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    David,
    I think trying the CAP/STEP again is beating a dead horse. We've been trying this for what, about 8/9 years now. I think the idea is great, but enough already. Maybe the 2 guys pushing this plan in the AWSC need to be replaced.

    This is far fetched, but. What is if we registered sleds like we register our vehicles. I pay more for my big truck than I do for my van or car. Maybe a 1100 cc sled should pay more than a 800 cc sled, and a 800 cc sled should pay more than a 600 cc sled, and a 600 cc sled should pay more than the rest of the smaller sleds. It would be similar to vehicle registration. Like I said, far fetched.

  39. #39
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    I think Wi. is loosing alot of $$ because they let people that live out of state register thier sleds as a resident so they don't need the trail pass, unless that has changed recently. If your primary residence isn't in Wi. you sure shouldn't be able to register your sled as a resident, even if you have a vacation home or whatever there your still not a resident. Again, maybe this has changed and they don't let you get away with it anymore but if so they are loosing atot of $$$ because of it. I know of many people that do this and save $$ but are screwing the trail systems they love to ride!! This is a big loophole that needs to be fixed IMO.
    Nytro

  40. #40
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    I live in Illinois, register in Wisconsin and buy Michigan trail stickers for all my sleds whether I ride there or not. I also pay sales tax to Wisconsin for any sled purchased that is registered there as many other folks also do. I don't believe that is "screwing the system"

  41. #41
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    Yep WI happy to take your sled tax money nooooooo problem..lol

  42. #42
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    Whats the price diference between buying a resident registration and how long they last for and the cost of buying a non-resident trail pass? Do residents still have to have a trail pass also like Michigan?




    I have never rode my sleds in Il. but I still register them here, also buy Mich.(both sleds) & Wi. trail pass(on my trail sled) every year and proly haven't put on 100 miles in Wi. over the last 2 yrs, but still buy in case I do. Sorry but I do think thats screwing the system if you're not a resident in Wi. and register it that way no matter where you pay the tax and why would you not pay the Il. sales tax and register it where you live?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banjo Man View Post
    I live in Illinois, register in Wisconsin and buy Michigan trail stickers for all my sleds whether I ride there or not. I also pay sales tax to Wisconsin for any sled purchased that is registered there as many other folks also do. I don't believe that is "screwing the system"

  43. #43
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    I keep my sleds in Wisconsin year round and they never even see Illinois so that is why I register in
    Wisconsin. Since I do my majority of riding there it makes sense to me to pay for the registration
    Stickers and the sales tax on the sleds.
    At 5% state and 1/2% county tax on each sled is considerable more revenue for the state I ride in than if I were to purchase a trail pass. Do the math.

  44. #44
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    Also saves atleast 1% sales tax for ya too.

    I never ride mine in Il. either and don't know if I can do a resident reg. in Mi. even tho I own a house there, but wouldn't realy matter for me because you have to get a trail pass in Mi. anyway.

    How much is the Wi. reg. vrs. the trail pass? How long is the reg. good for(3yrs?), he!! if saves that much $$ maybe I'll do the same thing!!!

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nytro_rtx View Post
    Also saves atleast 1% sales tax for ya too.

    I never ride mine in Il. either and don't know if I can do a resident reg. in Mi. even tho I own a house there, but wouldn't realy matter for me because you have to get a trail pass in Mi. anyway.

    How much is the Wi. reg. vrs. the trail pass? How long is the reg. good for(3yrs?), he!! if saves

    that much $$ maybe I'll do the same thing!!!

    Sounds like we are starting to agree lol.

  46. #46
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    The non-resident trail pass is $35 and good for only 1 season. The WI reg is $30 and good for 2 seasons. The $30 is the only fee that has to be paid to ride in WI if the sled is reg. in WI. The $15/year is a BARGAIN vs. MI and MN rates.

    Thanks for the 9 more votes since I last posted. I appreciate everyone who voted or shared their views on this topic!
    Last edited by blu2u2; 10-15-2012 at 09:39 PM. Reason: added more info

  47. #47
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    Banjo, Yes we are!! lol If you ever get up to the W-UP or close to the border let me know and we'll hook up for a ride!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Banjo Man View Post
    Sounds like we are starting to agree lol.
    blu, Thanks for the info., that is a bargain and I might change the way I register my sled. But how do I register in Wi. without a street addy there to register to?

    Quote Originally Posted by blu2u2 View Post
    The non-resident trail pass is $35 and good for only 1 season. The WI reg is $30 and good for 2 seasons. The $30 is the only fee that has to be paid to ride in WI if the sled is reg. in WI. The $15/year is a BARGAIN vs. MI and MN rates.

    Thanks for the 9 more votes since I last posted. I appreciate everyone who voted or shared their views on this topic!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nytro_rtx View Post
    Banjo, Yes we are!! lol If you ever get up to the W-UP or close to the border let me know and we'll hook up for a ride!!



    blu, Thanks for the info., that is a bargain and I might change the way I register my sled. But how do I register in Wi. without a street addy there to register to?
    You can register it by going to the DNR website if you wish,,and no Wis adress needed.And my understanding is that more of the money from registration goes to where it needs to be and more of the money from out of state trail permits goes to the general fund so in turn it is a win win situation all the way around to register them rather than buy the trail permit.

  49. #49
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    I live in Il and register my sleds in Wis, Il,and Ia. I bought one sled in Wis so I payed sale tax on it. I support a club in Wis, one in Il and one in Ia.
    When I get up to Wis. I put at least $100 in trail pig. We stay for two weeks so I think I save at least that much in gas. Money in trail pigs goes right to club not thru state!!!

  50. #50
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    Thanks for the info snowfreak!!! Looks like I will get Wi. reg. as soon as my current reg. expires!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by snowfreak56 View Post
    You can register it by going to the DNR website if you wish,,and no Wis adress needed.And my understanding is that more of the money from registration goes to where it needs to be and more of the money from out of state trail permits goes to the general fund so in turn it is a win win situation all the way around to register them rather than buy the trail permit.

  51. #51
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    Nytro, thanks for the offer to ride. I'm up in Boulder Junction at least for times during the season.
    Maybe we could get Whitedust to pay for the cold ones afterwards since he has all our money lol.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjo Man View Post
    Nytro, thanks for the offer to ride. I'm up in Boulder Junction at least for times during the season.
    Maybe we could get Whitedust to pay for the cold ones afterwards since he has all our money lol.
    Huh? Not clear on this but happy to ride & buy cold ones for Jders.

  53. #53
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    Maybe having this thread in the Misc. section will get more votes??? Thanks again for everyone who has already voted and to John for having this wonderful site!

  54. #54
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    I realize I am late to this discussion but here is my take with a little explanation. I am 30 yrs old been a active member in one club for 10+ yrs and another for 5yrs. Yes two clubs. I am involved in the county assoc. as map chairman and maintain,manage,operate one groomer of three we own. By profession I am a mechanic and know equipment. With that said how are we suposed to get ahead and have a better trail system for all to enjoy with equipment that is 15plus years old and recieving $50.00/hr to groom trails. I have been dedicated to running my groomer as hard as allows as much as possible and still have a hard time overcoming rising expenses, and have a hard time grooming at $25.00/hr which has been the amount supplimental has paid back at in the past. We have two unfunded trails that have been rejected from getting funded as they are not reroutes and are new trails. I realize this is a long drawn out problem with many difficult answers but we need to get to the bottom of it. How? I believe the cap/step is a good start but dont think it will fix all forever. Raising registration may be better in the long run but I hate raising taxes/fees! But I look at sleds,do we pay more for them than we used to? I hate shelling out $45.00 to ride the UP but I feel it is worth the cost for the riding that is available. I also think better management of funds will be the best but how is that possible with government? In the end I dont know that I have fixed anything but at least expressed my opinions and want to say that snowmobiling has gotten expensive but I enjoy the heck out of it, and realize we have some of the nicest trails in the midwest and dont want to lose them.

  55. #55
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    Switchback6, thanks for 10+ years that you have dedicated to helping make snowmobiling in WI better. It is also nice to see some younger blood be active. I appreciated your input and agree with your thoughts.

  56. #56
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    With the AWSC having the Winter Directors Meeting this weekend it would be nice to have more input/VOTES.

    WI has more registered sleds and trails than any other state but still has shortage of funds!!! With many counties finally being able to open this season it will likely be another year that many clubs are able to get supplement funding even though it usually is only 50 to 80 % of what the clubs are incurring in cost.

    If you have voted already thanks... if you have not done so please vote.

  57. #57
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    With the AWSC Convention coming up, and the fact that the AWSC wants to try the CAP/STEP again, let's try to get a few more replies for blu2u2 to take back to the Directors meeting.

    If you are viewing this thread, please reply to the poll.

  58. #58
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    Raise the trail permits, you want to ride the trails, pay to do so.
    Lake Effect Snow, my three favorite words.

  59. #59
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    Default blue = "red"

    Here is a picture of the current (2-9-13) WI Counties that are open. Looks like all but 3-4 are open! This is a good thing except all the blue will equal "red" for the clubs since there is a limited amount of money for the trails. If history repeats itself most clubs will only get about 60P1020997.jpg% of their trail expenses reimbursed.

  60. #60
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    Exactly! And no money for new trails, culverts, bridges, etc. It is way past time for a Wisconsin increase in registration stickers, but all you will get is complaints from people that don't understand, is its to expensive! This last fall I was trying to get some younger snowmobilers to the club meetings so I sent them invites via facebook, and one actually asked what the club does for the community and snowmobilers. I think this is the biggest problem we have is the majority of snowmobilers don't understand how the trail system works, who puts in the trails, and especially how the money works. There should be a letter in every registration sticker envelope explaining how the system works.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruiser trailboss View Post
    The boys and girls in Madison wont let us raise the the Wisconsin resident stickers. We may be able to get a raise in the non-resident sticker. After all Minnesota gets $45 for there pass. But the real money is in the gas tax. It is based on a sled using 50 gal of gas per year. That sales tax brings in over 4 million into the snowmobile fund. Get that changed to 100 gal.per sled. and our funding is in much better shape. We could raise the maintence from $250 to $300 to help out the southern clubs. And raise the $750 cap to $1000 to help out the northern clubs. And if the DOT doesnt want to gives us more of our tax money tell them to stop giving grants to user groops that dont pay any gas tax.
    This is the answer. You have to get a bigger allotment from the transportation fund.

    CAP/STEP is a joke. What people fail to see is the administrative nightmare that this is. This WILL add a tremendous amount of overhead to the process and IIRC, is the reason it fails to pass the legislature.

    Trail stickers? No thanks; much easier to bury that tax in to the existing snowmobile registration fee.

    If the program needs more money hike the registration fee to $50/ two-year sticker and try for a bigger slice of the pie from DOT's transportation fund.

    A flat fee increase will cost the state virtually zero money to implement. Let's not waste whatever additional funds that can be mustered on hiring more Madison bureaucrats to administer the program.

  62. #62
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    I don't think the CAP/STEP is a joke, and I do believe there will be administrative costs that may be unexpected.

    I think the whole idea is a good idea, but after 8 years of trying with no success, it's time to try something else. The AWSC has waisted enough of our Dues money on lobbying and have nothing to show for it. I think it may just come down to raising registration and out-of state stickers. Something needs to happen soon, the snowmobile program needs the money.

  63. #63
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    raise the 50 gals. per sled to 100 gals. problem solved! Cap step is dead. bury it!

  64. #64
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    I wouldnt complain if registration went to say $50 every 2 years . I am from Minnesota but register in booth states

  65. #65
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    I am an old geezer from NW MN. I have been riding sleds for 40 years. Way back when there were no trail permits. There were no groomed trails. There was no gas tax for sleds. There was only a very cheap registration sticker. We have come a long way since then. I can ride groomed trails from my garage all the way to the Atlantic ocean and back if mother nature provides snow. The vast interconnected trail system does not come cheap and I applaud anyone that goes to bat for increased funding to any governmental agency. But in the end I am with Skylar. If you want to play you have to pay. Snowmobiling is and always has been an expensive sport. So is any form of boating. And if you really want to get carried away go buy an airplane. Increase user fees as in trail permits. I have been sledding in Wisc since the early 90's. I have visited Mich also but mostly I go to Wisc. Trail fees are cheap as far as I am concerned. What the heck is $35 when gas costs as much as it does? Is $35 going to kill me when I just paid over 10 grand for my sled? Food, lodging, beer - it all costs a heck of a lot more than a trail pass. Raise it up to $100 bucks a season. For everybody - both in state and out of state in ALL the states. I will still come. So will many others. It goes back to realizing what an amazing trail system we have. It does not come cheap.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr37 View Post
    I don't think the CAP/STEP is a joke, and I do believe there will be administrative costs that may be unexpected.

    I think the whole idea is a good idea, but after 8 years of trying with no success, it's time to try something else. The AWSC has waisted enough of our Dues money on lobbying and have nothing to show for it. I think it may just come down to raising registration and out-of state stickers. Something needs to happen soon, the snowmobile program needs the money.
    Agree if more money needed you have to have each user pay their share & that must come from Madison not that CAP/STEP is bad but it will never fly.

  67. #67
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    We need tighter monitoring of the hours spent grooming.... seriously...this past 4 day weekend we rode at least 400 of our 800 miles on trails being regroomed that were nearly as perfect after we passed the groomer as before.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by snobuilder View Post
    We need tighter monitoring of the hours spent grooming.... seriously...this past 4 day weekend we rode at least 400 of our 800 miles on trails being regroomed that were nearly as perfect after we passed the groomer as before.
    How in the world would you do that?

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr37 View Post
    How in the world would you do that?
    It would be up to each club/alliance.

    Just saying, while some trails need round the clock grooming when certain areas have the only ridable snow, other times meerly grooming on a set schedule doesn't make the best sense when traffic is light because it has been spread out throughout the states/regions and this might be one way to cut costs vs. only looking for more money from the end users through fees or alternate methods.

  70. #70
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    Thanks to all for the additional votes in the last week and for jr37 for given this thread some life! The lack of funding that the clubs face is a vital issue that will only get worse with the increase cost of equipment, fuel, insurance, etc...

    I never would have thought that "over-grooming" would be an issue. If it is happening I think some common sense needs to be used by the club(s). Thanks snobuilder for adding this factor to the equation.

  71. #71
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    Agree with snobuilder that over grooming is a big factor, some groups feel that to make money back on the equipment that grooming is the best way and to get into supplemental. I still feel contracting like Minnesota does and setting a fixed amount every year is the way to go, lock the groups into a certain amount and if they go over then they need to find ways to recoup or cover the cost yet if they don't groom or have snow they still have a budget to go with. The clubs need to start treating this like business and not keep hoping on what the DNR gives them. Reason I point to Minnesota as an example is I don't see them having issues funding trails or building bridges. Cap/Step is not well thought out and doesn't solve the major issues that the state faces. Getting more gas tax money would be a good start, however with the enviromentalists challenging us on every issue that would be a major undertaking.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by blu2u2 View Post
    Thanks to all for the additional votes in the last week and for jr37 for given this thread some life! The lack of funding that the clubs face is a vital issue that will only get worse with the increase cost of equipment, fuel, insurance, etc...

    I never would have thought that "over-grooming" would be an issue. If it is happening I think some common sense needs to be used by the club(s). Thanks snobuilder for adding this factor to the equation.
    The popular areas might be impossible to "over groom", but the routes less traveled could use some rethinking this might be an unpopular stance, but I only went out on this limb because the costs have gone through the roof since 2009 or so.

  73. #73
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    Over grooming you got to be kidding! We send our groomers out on a 4 or 6 hour run and they see 150 to 200 sleds. by the time they get back to the barn. The trail is so bad they could start over. On a weekend like this it is not uncommon for our groomers to see 1000 sleds in one night.

  74. #74
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    Arbor Vitae is a busy area especially on weekends...not refering to those areas at all.

  75. #75
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    I have seen over grooming in farm field areas & it happens every year good or bad conditions so there is truth to this. Rush to put in hours grooming crap conditions & in fact making conditions worse. I have not seen this in the northwoods but a small part of all the trails in WI.

  76. #76
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    After riding from Freedom to Minoqua and back over the weekend I did not notice any over grooming. Most trails were in good condition except on the way home we took a short cut via going through Angelica. From Isaar north was the worst. I don't think a groomer had been on them yet this year!

  77. #77
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    AWSC Convention is only a couple weeks away, would be nice to see some more replys or ideas.

  78. #78
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    I rode in Allamakee county in Iowa over the weekend and they have two groomer units for the whole county. Was discussing grooming with some folks I met and they are contracted not paid by mileage for grooming. From the way I understand it the club gets a certain amount of money allocated to them and that is it, if they need more they have to do fundraising.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky367 View Post
    I rode in Allamakee county in Iowa over the weekend and they have two groomer units for the whole county. Was discussing grooming with some folks I met and they are contracted not paid by mileage for grooming. From the way I understand it the club gets a certain amount of money allocated to them and that is it, if they need more they have to do fundraising.
    And, from what I've seen in Clayton County, just south of Allamakee, they use smaller equipment. (Achieving the same quality of trails as Wisconsin and Michigan)

  80. #80
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    March issue of the WSN Mag. is really pushing for everyone to get on board with trying again to get the CAP/STEP passed. Unfortunately the WI DNR does not see it getting passed since the majority of lawmakers in Madison are not in favor... time will tell!

  81. #81
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    Don't get the WSN anymore since I decided to leave the club I was in and have yet to find one that I woud like to join, but to me it seems that the AWSC can't get the hint that people feel that it won't solve the issues as all it does is put a band aid on the problem.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by blu2u2 View Post
    March issue of the WSN Mag. is really pushing for everyone to get on board with trying again to get the CAP/STEP passed. Unfortunately the WI DNR does not see it getting passed since the majority of lawmakers in Madison are not in favor... time will tell!
    It's a good thing the AWSC keeps paying a lobbyist to know this stuff.................. (sarcasm)

  83. #83
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    Rocky367 I am sure that if you go to Madison you will be able to solve all our snowmobile problems.

  84. #84
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    haha, as my favorite podcaster likes to say I'm not dumb enough for politics. As a former club president and groomer alliance board member I see the problem and want a fix that fixes it and isn't tbecsimple way. We as a state need to take an overall approach and retool the system but I have a feeling it won't happen. Not enough people like Blu2 that see the big picture and are willing to hear what we have to say.

  85. #85
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    Rocky367.

    Maybe you can go to Green Bay June 6-7-8 and tell the world how to fix problems. Clubs and Asoc need suport to get problems fixed.

    I am a menber of clubs in Ill,Iowa,and Wis. So I know there a things that need to be changed, but they will never be changed if we do not suport our State Asoc's.

  86. #86
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    You are right about supporting your state assoc. But, if that assoc. has had 10 years and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to get something done, with no results and no Plan B, I can no longer support their thinking. It is time that they know we want them to drop it and try something new. I am talking about the AWSC and the CAP/STEP.

  87. #87
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    Thanks for the nice remark rocky367! As the treasurer of the largest club in Outagamie Cty I see firsthand what limited funding we get from the State. Without the fundraising events most clubs would go broke. It doesn't seem right that not only are the clubs responsible for the trails, but they have to raise money so they can continue to operate...

  88. #88
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    Snoduke, I'm a member of a club in Minnesota along with looking for one in Wisconsin to join again. I'm pondering going to the AWSC convention here in LaCrosse. When I was on the county groomer board and president of my old club I went several years to Stevens Point and have been following Cap/Step since they came up with the idea. I'm with JR37 in his thinking that they have to move on with their thinking.

    Blu2, I totally agree with the financial issues, but it is also trying to get people out working on trails like in areas that don't open or only for short periods every winter where people don't support the local clubs as much since they go north to ride. We have started to emulate Monroe counties model where we run tractors and rent them to someone during the summer to help us have funds to continue on. But the issue is bridges and trails need to be built and upgraded and no manpower or money. I'd love to sit down and have a nice conversation to discuss this with a bunch of folks from all over the state to come to a grip with this issue.

  89. #89
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    rocky367, I am going to the AWSC convention. If you go, let me know. I will PM you my number and maybe we can get together. Still hoping blu2u2 changes his mind and shows up also.

  90. #90
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    jr37, since the convention is right here in my town even if I don't make it I'm sure we can get together. I hope he changes his mind also.

  91. #91
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    We were talking after a club meeting last week about the AWSC in general and this topic. We drew a parallel with the Wisconsin Tavern League. How many bars and restaurants are there that you know of that DONT belong to the Tavern League? Of the places I stop I cant think of a single one. The WTL is arguably the strongest lobby presence in Madison and get darn near everything they want. Now look at the AWSC. I heard a number thrown out that only about 10% of sledders are club members. I dont know what the real number is but I'm sure it's under half. Now imagine if only 50% of bars were members of the WTL. They would have much less influence. The cost to join the AWSC is only 10 bucks and then an extra 10 or 20 bucks to the local club. At 30 bucks I dont think the cost to join is the problem. CLEARLY, the AWSC and locals (which I am one) area doing something majorly wrong if we cant get more than half of sledders to support the sport. Imagine a marketer for a company that cant get more than 10% market share, they are soon going to be looking for a new job.

    So before we can expect to see success in Madison the AWSC must get serious about building membership and support. We need new ideas on how that can be done. One idea could be to make it an option when renewing or buying registration for your sled. Most of us use the online renewal system right? The system already has your address, so let's take that a step further and suggest local clubs that maintain the trails near you. I think we would get more members if we could ask sledders at registration time to support their local trail system. It's been my experience as membership chair that most people just need to be asked to join. This is a simple way to ask ALL state sledders. I'm sure there are many other suggestions people may have.

    If things don't change and Madison doesn't show the clubs a bit of appreciation for propping up a multi-million dollar industry i'm afraid you'll see things like organized trail closures in protest. If clubs banded together that way the State would HAVE to take us seriously. Small clubs continue to fold and larger clubs are running deficits or cutting into reserves to pick up slack. The current state of snowmobiling cant continue this way.

  92. #92
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    Cap/Step might work don't know just don't like telling me I have to join an organization not a good precedent & 1 of the reasons many don't like Cap/Step. I'm on the fence now warmed up to the idea overtime.

  93. #93
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    I like your idea about marketing. Maybe the AWSC could get rid of their lobbyist and use that money towards marketing. I also like the idea about joining a club with your online registration/ renewal. It may be a administrative problem to get it ironed out between the DNR and the AWSC, but a good idea. I really believe the AWSC wants more/ new members. Every new member is money in their pocket. I just think they need a new approach on gaining those members, and you just had 2 good ideas on how to do it. I suggest you let your county AWSC Director know your ideas.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo View Post
    i agree with arctive. i do not mind paying my share of the bill but everyone should have pay there share too.i pay to reg. my sled this yr and it never left the shed.
    The 2011-12 winter, the trails I signed never opened. But guess what, I still spent about 20 hours of mytime putting out 15 miles worth of signs across farm fields. Another couple days removing them in the spring. I spent $100 out of my pocket on gas to sign those fields. I know I could probably ask for reimbursement from the club but if we all did that our club would probably need to do another brat fry to raise money to cover it.

    This isn't about me whining. This is about the thousands of others just like me across the state that do the exact same thing simply for the love of the sport. All we would like to see is some respect from Madison to show they appreciate the efforts we all take. Snowmobiling is the ONLY State program that is entirely self-funded. Not a penny of tax money supports the trails that brings in millions in tourism revenue. The people who install and maintain the trails are asking to raise rates we sledders pay. Were not asking for a handout from general tax money. They should show us that respect.

    Sorry for the soap box rants today. It just happens to be fresh in my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whitedust View Post
    Cap/Step might work don't know just don't like telling me I have to join an organization not a good precedent & 1 of the reasons many don't like Cap/Step. I'm on the fence now warmed up to the idea overtime.
    I agree whitedust. I don't want club members to join if they don't want to either. I would hope most would join our club because it's the right thing to do. I would propose something where everyone pays the same amount for registration. Let's say $50 but it could be any number. So $50 for a two year sled registration which is still cheap in my mind. Then when you register, you have the option to join a local club. My club costs $30 ($20 stays with us and $10 to join the AWSC). So if you decide to join our club at registration time you would pay the $30 to our club and $20 to the DNR. Club member or not, we still all pay the same price to register. The difference being is the money gained from new members goes directly to the club of your choice.

    I would guess the majority of people would much rather pay money to the people grooming, installing signs and cooking the steak feed for landowners instead of the DNR.

  96. #96
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Lakeville, MN
    Posts
    1,444

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowshoe View Post
    We were talking after a club meeting last week about the AWSC in general and this topic. We drew a parallel with the Wisconsin Tavern League. How many bars and restaurants are there that you know of that DONT belong to the Tavern League? Of the places I stop I cant think of a single one. The WTL is arguably the strongest lobby presence in Madison and get darn near everything they want. Now look at the AWSC. I heard a number thrown out that only about 10% of sledders are club members. I dont know what the real number is but I'm sure it's under half. Now imagine if only 50% of bars were members of the WTL. They would have much less influence. The cost to join the AWSC is only 10 bucks and then an extra 10 or 20 bucks to the local club. At 30 bucks I dont think the cost to join is the problem. CLEARLY, the AWSC and locals (which I am one) area doing something majorly wrong if we cant get more than half of sledders to support the sport. Imagine a marketer for a company that cant get more than 10% market share, they are soon going to be looking for a new job.
    I'm on board with your idea, the Clubs need to get the AWSC to act like the WTL.

    The flaw with this comparison is, people that use the bars pay to play, just like the sledders that belong to clubs, pay to play. HOWEVER, bars MAKE money without members, Snowmobile Clubs don't.

    I agree we need to get more people to join clubs, and be active, but so many don't feel as though they have to do anything, which is why only higher registration rates and trail pass fees will work.

  97. #97
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Phelps, WI
    Posts
    6,480

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowshoe View Post
    I agree whitedust. I don't want club members to join if they don't want to either. I would hope most would join our club because it's the right thing to do. I would propose something where everyone pays the same amount for registration. Let's say $50 but it could be any number. So $50 for a two year sled registration which is still cheap in my mind. Then when you register, you have the option to join a local club. My club costs $30 ($20 stays with us and $10 to join the AWSC). So if you decide to join our club at registration time you would pay the $30 to our club and $20 to the DNR. Club member or not, we still all pay the same price to register. The difference being is the money gained from new members goes directly to the club of your choice.

    I would guess the majority of people would much rather pay money to the people grooming, installing signs and cooking the steak feed for landowners instead of the DNR.
    Agree I have seen people join sports clubs & other clubs with an agenda ...then you have to listen to all their horsepoop when they don't know jack about what they are talking about. Just gives me a headache I don't need & slows down day to day biz. Been there done that PITA. Maybe should be Jr members or something move on to full senior member when they know more. I'm all for club meetings as long as stuff gets done!

  98. #98
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Salem, Wi
    Posts
    176

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    Loving the thoughts and ideas being kicked around. Seems like my thoughts aren't just limited to me and good to hear others were in the same boat last winter. I love the idea of being able to snag folks as they register, too bad we can't get those lists to canvas with.

  99. #99
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Marathon,WI
    Posts
    1,650

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    Just got back from the AWSC Convention and the AWSC is pursuing the CAP/STEP again. They offer no Plan B if it fails and will not say if they would come with a Plan B if it fails. It sounds like it's a long shot at passing, but you never know. I never heard so much preaching about staying united, because if we are not united we will never get anything accomplished. That may be true, but at what point do you voice your opposition. They obviously know support is slipping, that is why the "united" preaching was heard so much. We will know in a month or so if the CAP/STEP is going anywhere this time. If it fails again, I'm sure there will be a lively debate at the Directors meeting in June. It's time to move on.

  100. #100
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Appleton, WI
    Posts
    344

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    Thanks for the update on this jr37! I would have really liked to go but I had to work on Sat. I was voted out as the AWSC Rep. for Outagamie Cty. so now I will just be another concerned snowmobiler if I attend future AWSC meetings.
    I do give the AWSC credit for their persistence! However, how many more years will this continue??? For the 3 years I was a Dir. & Rep. I tried to keep an open mind and not drink too much Kool-Aid. I probably wasn't liked since I didn't always go along with what the AWSC was trying to sell. Maybe now if everybody is on board they will finally get the CAP/STEP passed????

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