View Poll Results: What should be done to get more money into the trail system in WI?

Voters
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  • Try to get the CAP/STEP Program passed again

    48 32.43%
  • Raise the registration fee for ALL WI residents

    33 22.30%
  • Create a required trail sticker for anyone who rides in WI

    55 37.16%
  • Other... (Please send me a PM or post your ideas)

    12 8.11%
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Results 101 to 170 of 170
  1. #101
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    We had the AWSC V.P. at our county meeting tonight. He sure paints an optomistic picture on getting the CAP/STEP passed this time. I just don't see it happening. The governor has said he won't pass any fee increases for anything.

    The AWSC wants us to be united. I think if the AWSC were united with the Governors Snowmobile Recreation Council maybe more could be accomplished. The Governors Council is appointed by the governor, I believe. So wouldn't it make sense to unite with people hand picked by the governor? Wouldn't there be a better chance of getting a bill passed if the AWSC worked with them, instead of alone.

    I sure think things will get interesting at future AWSC meetings if this fails again. I know I will be speaking my mind if given the chance.

  2. #102
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    Just a few simple observations, having dogged along in this thread for quite awhile now.

    The daz of expecting folks to join a club at gun point is winding down faster than the polar ice melt; who wants to join something that they know is going to suck TIME and probably money out of pockets that have factually been drained in many other places. Folks need to want to join...not be punished... if they don't show up...no public floggings...extortion notes or threats of violence. Most clubs as members on here admit on this thread are still doin stuff like they did 25 years ago, and folks, that just doesn't work anymore. People should WANT to join because it's better than a trip to disney world, or a float on the stinkboat...ok, maybe not that much fun....but got to get out of the box here and get moving on fresh new ideas. Raffles on each meeting, contributions from companies that need to contribute more who benefit from the sledding world. If folks look forward to a sunday show/meeting/raffle/cook-out maybe just maybe that stoggy old one hour club meeting won't be viewed as a sort of time and money eating club.

    I rarely count up the true costs to participate in sledding because in ERA's words, the "war department" ever caught up with it the equal time equal pay paragraph of our marriage license sub paragraph 34 (which of course I skipped over back in the day) would require that I give up the sport entirely or get a 4th time job.

    But a way back in the corner of my ear, I have sort of calculated the following:

    Snowmobling pulling machine costs about $350-500 per trip which would include taxes, insurance wear and tear but not fuel for 500 mile round trip.
    Fuel...well I won't put it to the calculator but I know it is $200 just to get there won't include any driving around while there and not on the sleds while there either...hurts a bunch just to even bring it up.

    ...but I have to say that another $150 fueling up 4 sleds is not unnnnnusual these days.

    8-13k on a fresh ride every few gett'n a pitful return on investment of what you had to sell to make room.

    Insurance on sleds, helmets, bluetooth, toccobell....oh, wrong list.....the "get ready to ride this year list" which easily tops about $400 per year, fixing stuff that got broke and tuning up a sled with less than a 1000 miles on it. Trailer and bearings...tires and treads....you get the drift.

    If you put all these numbers together 75% of sledheads would give it up. But they don't do they....because they love the sport and are addicted to it even shamefully admitting to sniffing exhaust fumes in the off season to tide them over until they can start burning the real deal in late December.

    ARe you actually seriously thinking that if the state...in fact all the states raised the fees to ride the trails $150 a year this would have a major impact on whether you would go or not?

    Out of the box again here but if all midwestern states charged the same ONE TRAIL fee to ride in ALL states would that encourage tourism and club unification from the pitful pull they have now to one resounding group all working for the same efforts to KEEP sledding alive or what?



    I also hear of wasted spending going on NOW.

    Sleddin aint cheap but wasting what you got in place YOU know could be improved on would show your government that you are serious about this and not just trying to tack on costs to johnny lunchbucket. $80k on a snowmobile bridge....did it have 4 way intersection, with it's own personal traffic officer???

    One more point....any time you raise fees to enjoy any recreational activity it will have a passive impact on those who are barely involved in the sport. If your neighbor hasn't moved his sled box out of the backyard more than twice this winter...he may pass on using it altogether. It is called the crack point. Old age, lack of money, time limits all point the way to crack limit for a pretty big number of sledders. Hate to see that happen but if something has to be done then sometimes there is no other way to do it.

  3. #103
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    Dec 2009
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    West Salem, Wi
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    Very good post Anonomoose! You put into words alot of what I've thought, can tell you have thought long about it also. I wish more people would take notice and start letting the AWSC it won't work the way they intend it. I love the idea of one pass for all the states! I'd pay 200 dollars to just be able to load up my sleds and go around the region.

  4. #104
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    Eleva,WI
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    I really don't understand the opossition. It doesn't force anyone to join anything, just an encouragement more than anything. I have heard people say it just puts a band-aid over the problem, so if it does, what is the real problem then? If it doesn't get passed, or just simply a registration raise, the dnr just might take over and control all things snowmobiling, and that would not be good!

  5. #105
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    If cap/step flies could be ok but I don't think Madison likes the program or would have passed it years ago.

  6. #106
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    North and South Wisco
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    Doesn't the cap step idea lay more work at the feet of the club secretary in the way of alot more members plus all the additional documentation every year?
    Currently handing out a little AWSC member wallet card that has no real world significance is a walk in the park vs. "official documentation" submitted to the STATE wll be a big leap in responsibility for a volunteer position.
    Probly in triplicate to boot!.....LOL!!!
    Personally I hate more layers of bureaucracy.
    Last edited by snobuilder; 04-06-2013 at 09:33 AM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by anonomoose View Post
    who wants to join something that they know is going to suck TIME and probably money out of pockets that have factually been drained in many other places. Folks need to want to join...not be punished... if they don't show up...no public floggings...extortion notes or threats of violence. Most clubs as members on here admit on this thread are still doin stuff like they did 25 years ago, and folks, that just doesn't work anymore. People should WANT to join because it's better than a trip to disney world, or a float on the stinkboat...ok, maybe not that much fun....but got to get out of the box here and get moving on fresh new ideas. Raffles on each meeting, contributions from companies that need to contribute more who benefit from the sledding world. If folks look forward to a sunday show/meeting/raffle/cook-out maybe just maybe that stoggy old one hour club meeting won't be viewed as a sort of time and money eating club.
    This is what is hard to admit for most people. Change. I can't remember the last time I went to a club meeting. But every year, somewhere, sometimes more than one area in a year, I go do trail work. This is my contribution, and my time spent with the people in the clubs. To me, this is WAAAAAY more fun than sitting in an f'n meeting after having done just that at my job each of the past 5 days......

  8. #108
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    [QUOTE=anonomoose;326670]Just a few simple observations, having dogged along in this thread for quite awhile now.

    The daz of expecting folks to join a club at gun point is winding down faster than the polar ice melt; who wants to join something that they know is going to suck TIME and probably money out of pockets that have factually been drained in many other places. Folks need to want to join...not be punished... if they don't show up...no public floggings...extortion notes or threats of violence. Most clubs as members on here admit on this thread are still doin stuff like they did 25 years ago, and folks, that just doesn't work anymore. People should WANT to join because it's better than a trip to disney world, or a float on the stinkboat...ok, maybe not that much fun....but got to get out of the box here and get moving on fresh new ideas. Raffles on each meeting, contributions from companies that need to contribute more who benefit from the sledding world. If folks look forward to a sunday show/meeting/raffle/cook-out maybe just maybe that stoggy old one hour club meeting won't be viewed as a sort of time and money eating club.

    QUOTE]

    so from your perspective, joining a club and doing some good towards the trails that you spend tons of cash to ride on (sled cost, fuel, lodging, food, insurance, permits, reg., etc) is looked at as "being punished"??...LOL.... you sound spoilt to this sledder.

    if the next generation agrees with your assessment there won't be any trails in the future to spend gobs of cash to ride on...problem solved, eh poindexter?

  9. #109
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    My concern is where is the next generation? They can't afford the sport & becoming an old fart sport those with the big bucks.

  10. #110
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    This year I saw many groups of 20 somethigs and under havin a total blast on ther pre/post millenial sleds.
    you don't need a ton a cash if you really think about it...especially if you live where the snow is.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by snobuilder View Post
    This year I saw many groups of 20 somethigs and under havin a total blast on ther pre/post millenial sleds.
    you don't need a ton a cash if you really think about it...especially if you live where the snow is.
    Trouble is when they become 30 somethings married with children then no money for snowmobiling & being torn between family needs ,boy toys & time management. Very tough for 30 somethings to stay in the sport.

  12. #112
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    [QUOTE=snobuilder;326771]
    Quote Originally Posted by anonomoose View Post
    Just a few simple observations, having dogged along in this thread for quite awhile now.

    The daz of expecting folks to join a club at gun point is winding down faster than the polar ice melt; who wants to join something that they know is going to suck TIME and probably money out of pockets that have factually been drained in many other places. Folks need to want to join...not be punished...

    QUOTE]

    so from your perspective, joining a club and doing some good towards the trails that you spend tons of cash to ride on (sled cost, fuel, lodging, food, insurance, permits, reg., etc) is looked at as "being punished"??...LOL.... you sound spoilt to this sledder.

    if the next generation agrees with your assessment there won't be any trails in the future to spend gobs of cash to ride on...problem solved, eh poindexter?
    Don't get your Mzter badge all tarnished up bud.....there REALLY is a reason folks aren't charging into join up or all this wouldn't be necessary would it?

    This is a not so thinly veiled effort to bolster club membership...isn't it....REALLY???

    Not everyone can or is willing to lay the time aside to do what it takes to join and participate in a club....seems simple enough to me. If you really want to have folks join enjoy and participate you have to get out of those old suspenders and leisure suite mind sets and get out of the box....and if you do, they will come. Fact is I could see encouragement of NON-sledders joining just for all the fun and enjoyment the WHOLE family could have at these functions...at least that's one of probably a hundred new angles to take on this. How about building on new membership and folks who perhaps have never even gone sledding before....more money for everyone, right?

    But if this criticism cuts close to the bone....sorry....just this poindexter, as you call me, telling it like it is.

    Before you go windin up on me as an anti club guy, I want to set the record straight and say that I like club activity at some level have always pd dues and fees and put in time when I can and wish that more folks would join because it would IMPROVE the picture but I don't think it is the cure-all that most in cheez land hope it to be. Income streams from many places and though club involvement is great it probably, in the final analysis won't be enough to solve the problems of what ALL states are facing in the face of rising cost of fuels and equipment and leasing and insurance. As long as the number of sledders is dwindling there are going to be strong headwinds solving this one.
    Last edited by anonomoose; 04-06-2013 at 07:49 PM.

  13. #113
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    I guess the way I look at it as not being punished, but encouraged to join. If they don't, they don't, but an incentive can't hurt. I don't see sleds dwindling as much as the hardcore sledder is dwindling. When there is snow, sleds come out of the woodwork and used sleds are impossible to find, so maybe call them opportunistic riders. When there is snow around home they ride. I really beleive that a great majority of these riders have no idea how the trails appear each year. When someone gets into the sport they deal with the dnr for registration, the dnr patrols the trails, so common sense would say the dnr puts in the trails. We have an upshift in help in our club, but we have taken the following approach: join the club, you don't need to attend the meetings, just give us at least 4 hours a year of labor help on the trails. It seems to help and they will ussually show up for a day, not just 4 hours, which really helps us get the trails marked and ready. From these new members, a small percentage will attend the meetings and want to get involved with all the inner workings of the club, and from these people is how I'm hoping our club will grow.

  14. #114
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    At the Outagamie Cty Snowmobile Alliance meeting tonight it was voted on to not send in the club membership dues since the AWSC is not willing to try a different route of raising more funds for the clubs! If more clubs/counties do this I would hope that the top brass in the AWSC will open their eyes and see something has to be done. One would think that after the 8th or 9th try at the same thing (CAP/STEP) that is just not working; they should go with a different plan???.....
    Last edited by blu2u2; 09-16-2013 at 11:15 PM. Reason: typo

  15. #115
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    I don't how short the funding is but to pay a little more for registration(as long as the increase goes toward DNR trail maintenance and not to public sector pension bail outs), and an increase in local club membership, I would be up for that. When you think about what people are spending on this sport every year, I feel it's not too much to ask to donate the cost of a few beers at the end of the ride.
    Last edited by renten; 09-16-2013 at 11:18 PM.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by renten View Post
    I don't how short the funding is but to pay a little more for registration(as long as the increase goes toward DNR trail maintenance and not to public sector pension bail outs), and an increase in local club membership, I would be up for that. When you think about what people are spending on this sport every year, I feel it's not too much to ask to donate the cost of a few beers at the ride.
    Around $2 million each of the last couple of years and this doesn't take into account new trails or bridges. In good snow years clubs get only about 50% back from what they spend on maintaining the trails.

  17. #117
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    I support my local club in many ways,but would also support increases in club membership and trail pass if it meant supporting the local businesses and nice trails.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by blu2u2 View Post
    At the Outagamie Cty Snowmobile Alliance meeting tonight it was voted on to not send in the club membership dues since the AWSC is not willing to try a different route of raising more funds for the clubs! If more clubs/counties do this I would hope that the top brass in the AWSC will open their eyes and see something has to be done. One would think that after the 8th or 9th try at the same thing (CAP/STEP) that is just not working; they should go with a different plan???.....
    Did you here that the AWSC is finally trying to work with the Governors Snowmobile Recreation Council? It sounds like they trying to kinda use things from each others proposal and hope that it will be an easier sell to the Legislature. I don't know if it will work, but I am happy that the AWSC is finally working with the SRC, instead of against them. We have until April for the Legislature to accept this or not. If it fails, it will never fly again. We need something, so I hope this new found alliance works.

  19. #119
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    I just hope working with the SRC is not a slippery slope that shifts more power from the people who actually do the work on the trails to the SRC, and that will shift the power to whoever happens to be governor. The SRC is too much government and not enough snowmobile, if you catch my drift. I do not understand the resistance to cap step. I do know the registration needs to be raised, and I beleive the resistance from the legislature is not about the money , but about the power. Snowmobiling in Wisconsin has been mostly supported by snowmobilers, trails are put in by snowmobilers, and NO tax dollars from a non-snowmobiler is used in the making and maintenance of trails, and should be kept that way, and Cap/Step is a way to maintain that. Does anyone know how the members of the SRC are selected? If selected by the governor, and we get a snowmobiler hater in the office, could be a very bad thing if power is taken from the AWSC and shifted to the council.

  20. #120
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    I really am not concerned with the SRC taking control of the snowmobile program. I think that this is a good thing for us right now. It is my understanding that the SRC members are appointed by the governor. With the AWSC working with people that the governor is somewhat familiar with, this should be a plus, instead of the AWSC trying to go it alone. If the AWSC can show a proposal with the SRCs backing, I would hope that would be good when the Governor sees it, or anyone in the Legislature sees it for that matter.

    There is no need for the SRC to try to slip their way into control. With a program that is now totally user funded, that surely would go away with government control. Then we would be looking at using tax payer dollars, and that would NOT be a good thing. Just get us some more funding from the people already using the system and we'll be good for a while. Wouldn't it be nice to have all this lobbying for money behind us.

  21. #121
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    Nice would be an understatement. It needs to get done, and I can see the benefits in working with the governors people, I'm more skeptical than most when in comes to government intervention. Wisconsin has the top trail system in the world and it was completely done with volunteers and their money, and to keep the system healthy it should stay that way.

  22. #122
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    The task of getting increased trail funding into our Wisconsin snowmobile program is not that difficult. All that needs to be done is to have full support of the general snowmobiling public and snowmobile owners in agreement on meaningful and truthful legislation, then these initiatives can move through the capitol! Mission accomplished.

    Unfortunately this is not happening and WILL NOT happen as long as attempts continue to move something called Cap/Step through the capitol. Cap/Step’s intentions are good—create increased funding through the registration process and by the addition of a trail pass for all snowmobiles. But Cap/Step, which has been around since about 2005, and in the Capitol in both 2010 and 2012, and now once again rolling along already with an LRB number (LRB2943) is not likely to make it a third time either since it still contains the $20 per sled per year penalty for snowmobile owners who dare not to join the AWSC, a requirement included in this third attempt to make it a law. Get rid of this requirement and stop the attempts to divide the snowmobilers into two groups—club members and those who cannot or will not join the private organization of AWSC.

    Legislators are not buying this legislation, and as each day goes by, more and more snowmobilers and even individual clubs and county associations are realizing that the Cap/Step proposal is flawed, and is holding back any increase in snowmobile program funding due to AWSC’s continuing focus on Cap/Step and nothing else. Cap/Step is in effect holding the snowmobile program hostage, and after so many years now with no increased funding, clubs and others have come to realize that their new trails that they apply for, or other projects, are NOT receiving any funding because the way over-due increased funding is not going to happen until Cap/Step goes away. Snowmobile clubs and the volunteers that put in the trails deserve better than this.

    There is a better way out there for the much needed increase in funding to occur. The Wisconsin Snowmobile Recreation Council presented a proposal back in December, 2012, that would cause this to happen with a quick and simple increase in the registration costs of each snowmobile, via a trail pass that would have a cost equal and proper for ALL snowmobile owners, without a penalty for non-club members. Discussion of the proposal also included a way that would not require owners needing to attach another sticker to their snowmobiles. When a vote was taken, the motion to pursue this was passed by a majority of the council members. But until Cap/Step disappears from AWSC’s radar screen, this proposal will not likely move forward.

    It’s time to move on, and that means Cap/Step must disappear so that everyone can get together and urge our legislators to pass some unbiased legislation for increased funding to the program.

  23. #123
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    LRB2943 is as close to the funding we need, as we have ever been. The AWSC and the SRC are now working together, and that is a good thing. LRB2943 has been drafted by Rep. Mary Czaja and has not yet been voted on by the AWSC,that will happen at the next Diectors meeting in a month. I know that there is lots of opposition, but now is not the time to kill something that may finally get us the money we need. I do believe that if it fails this time, that we not try CAP/STEP again. I don't think it would get the votes to support it again. But, right now we need to try and get this passed and move on.

  24. #124
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    I spend from 2-5 weeks a year riding in on Wis. trails. I put atleast $50 in trail jars every week most of time more. This money goes to club trails that I ride. I also belong to a club in Wi.,Iowa,Il and Mich. Is $50-$1oo is to much to ride my $12,000 sled for a week? Do you think that area that has 500 sleds could use the extra $25,000???

  25. #125
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    There is a better way out there for the much needed increase in funding to occur. The Wisconsin Snowmobile Recreation Council presented a proposal back in December, 2012, that would cause this to happen with a quick and simple increase in the registration costs of each snowmobile, via a trail pass that would have a cost equal and proper for ALL snowmobile owners, without a penalty for non-club members. Discussion of the proposal also included a way that would not require owners needing to attach another sticker to their snowmobiles. When a vote was taken, the motion to pursue this was passed by a majority of the council members. But until Cap/Step disappears from AWSC’s radar screen, this proposal will not likely move forward.

    This is my problem with statement like this. Most of us know that trails will not appear without clubs. Why would it be a "PENALTY" for non club members? Would it not be an incentive to get out and do some trail work? The fact that anyone would call it a penalty for non club members is a joke. Why are there non club members? I understand that I was raised in a family that was in a club, so I have a biased view. But how can anyone who gets into the sport, understand how the trails are maintained and new tails are formed, look at the process and say "I don't need to join a club?" Maybe not enough people understand snowmobiling is a great priviledge, and not a right. Without club members, volunteer club members at that, this priviledge would not exist. To anyone who says cap/step penalizes a non-club member, I say so what. It rewards snowmobilers. A person who at the very least is not a club member, is just a owner and rider of a snow machine. Snowmobilers join clubs, mark trails, maintain and groom them, and then, when they get a chance, ride the trails! Now I ask any non club member, what is wrong with rewarding snowmobilers?

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by renegade View Post
    This is my problem with statement like this. Most of us know that trails will not appear without clubs. Why would it be a "PENALTY" for non club members? Would it not be an incentive to get out and do some trail work? The fact that anyone would call it a penalty for non club members is a joke. Why are there non club members? I understand that I was raised in a family that was in a club, so I have a biased view. But how can anyone who gets into the sport, understand how the trails are maintained and new tails are formed, look at the process and say "I don't need to join a club?" Maybe not enough people understand snowmobiling is a great priviledge, and not a right. Without club members, volunteer club members at that, this priviledge would not exist. To anyone who says cap/step penalizes a non-club member, I say so what. It rewards snowmobilers. A person who at the very least is not a club member, is just a owner and rider of a snow machine. Snowmobilers join clubs, mark trails, maintain and groom them, and then, when they get a chance, ride the trails! Now I ask any non club member, what is wrong with rewarding snowmobilers?
    Even though I agree with what you are saying renegade; unfortunately the majority of the snowmobile owners in WI DO NOT see it this way. Given that fact that only 25,000 +/- snowmobilers belong to the AWSC, and WI has about 225,000 to 250,000 registered sleds, clubs members are the MINORITY! The non-club members (majority) rule.
    What zozo2 said above is sad but true. I can't see the CAP/STEP going forward if it treats club members and non-club members differently.

  27. #127

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    Cap step is doomed to not being considered, as it does not treat all equally, and it mandates people to participate that may not want to. The solution to better trails is not more fees, rather continuing improvement in processes to utilize optimal time to groom and to eliminate grooming in less than desirable conditions. Seems to me the trails have been very good the last few years and I didn't hear about clubs struggling with trail funds, even in a relatively high snow year, like last year. blu2u2 has it completely right - club members are in the minority for a reason, because they are more social in nature than functional. And there are certain areas of the state that just do NOT have sufficient snow on a consistent basis, to justify a clubs time, effort, and dues to maintain trails. What's good for a club in northern WI, is not good for a club in southern, WI. You certainly can't mandate people in low snow areas to join a club - what's the benefit and objective? To fund all the other trails in the state, with money split equally? That doesn't make any sense.

  28. #128
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    Just for clearification, I have been putting in trails, talking to landowners, and been a member of several clubs for years and years, going back to the time when there was no AWSC or snowmobile laws. Among my background history with snowmobiling, I had been membership chair of one of the top ten AWSC clubs in the state for about 10 years, and had tried everything possible to encourage more non club members to join, but it is always the same--we loose about 10% of our members every year due to many different and quite valid reasons, but we also had gained about the same number due to snowmobilers moving into our area, new snowmobilers to the sport, etc. And every year, we have found no trouble in getting the trails in because snowmobilers need a place to ride, and it is always about the same 10% of club members who are really active and actually do all of the volunteer work that needs to be done for a club to function. There are probably few people who have done just half maybe of what I have done to get new members, and I still believe and support the fact that snowmobilers SHOULD belong to a club, but they just should not be "forced to join or else." Some people will simply not join, and their reasons for not joining or dropping out of the club(s) are very valid and need to be respected (surveys were done on this). It is just plain not right to have non club members having to pay more to ride the trails than club members, when most club members really don't do anything active within the club to start with, and most non club members who are active riders support the clubs anyway through donations, buying their raffle tickets, etc. etc. It just seems that the $20 surcharge has earned the right to be called a penalty based on the background of this club member vs non club member issue.

  29. #129
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    OK, now let's fast forward for a minute and consider that the following could occur if Cap/Step were to pass: A non club member and his family of four decides he/they simply cannot belong to a club (maybe he works two jobs, lives too far away, simply does not believe that he has to join AWSC through his club, has an older sled that he can still ride occasionally, etc.) So he pays the $20 "surcharge/penalty." Isn't it very likely that he now feels he has paid his share of the funding increase that he agrees is needed? Might he now feel that he believes he has no further obligation to join a club and respectfully states, when asked to join, that "...I've paid my way, now stop asking me to join...", and "...Please don't bother me anymore to help with the trails...", and "...I am no longer going to support your raffles or donate to the groomer jars...", and to even go one step farther "...And now that you've got your increased funding I expect to find more and better quality trails or I will be complaining..." Talk about "DIVIDING" snowmobilers into two groups rather than "United we trail" it would appear that the passage of Cap/Step has indeed created a bigger problem than we had before, let's hope this scene doesn't require a bartender to call the police if things get physical!

  30. #130
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    In all the info that I have received on this subject from the AWSC, I have never heard it said that it was a "penalty" to not join a club. It is an incentive to join a club. If you don't join, fine, that's an extra $20 in the pot. I like to look at it as a reward for club members. I realize that a few members do all the work, but think of all the time those few donate. I don't see non-club members rushing to join a club over this, but I do think current members will appreciate the "reward". Maybe we should look at it as being a "thank you" to club members from non members.

    At the end of the day, whether we agree on this or not, the simple fact of the matter is that the snowmobile program needs more money. This may not be the perfect answer for everyone, but it does bring us the needed funding.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr37 View Post
    In all the info that I have received on this subject from the AWSC, I have never heard it said that it was a "penalty" to not join a club. It is an incentive to join a club. If you don't join, fine, that's an extra $20 in the pot. I like to look at it as a reward for club members. I realize that a few members do all the work, but think of all the time those few donate. I don't see non-club members rushing to join a club over this, but I do think current members will appreciate the "reward". Maybe we should look at it as being a "thank you" to club members from non members.

    At the end of the day, whether we agree on this or not, the simple fact of the matter is that the snowmobile program needs more money. This may not be the perfect answer for everyone, but it does bring us the needed funding.
    Only IF it is passed will it bring the needed funding....! Until then how many more clubs will only get 50-60 percent back in supplemental funding?

  32. #132
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    Maybe the problem is too many clubs make it on 50% supplemental pay. I haven't heard what the amount is after last year, but my guess is well below 50%. Maybe clubs need to shut down after they reach supplemental to prove a point. I think there are valid arguments against cap/step. But to argue that it isn't fair to a non-club member is complete b.s. in my opinion. If you are a non club member and don't like what is going in in the sport, tough crap. My biggest concern is there are 25,000 or so members in the AWSC, thats a half million in rewards. Where does that money get taken from that could be used elsewhere? What if membership doubles? Thats a million bucks. Is that worth it? I don't know the answer to that. But I cannot grasp the fact a non club member would be up in arms cause he was charged $30 a year and a member who puts in hours of volunteer time only pays $15. How can an intelligent person argue against that? Its not like the member is doing a easy job just to put some time in. If they were not there, there would be no trail. Not a unbrushed, unmowed, ungroomed peice of arse trail. NO TRAIL!

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by renegade View Post
    Maybe the problem is too many clubs make it on 50% supplemental pay. I haven't heard what the amount is after last year, but my guess is well below 50%. Maybe clubs need to shut down after they reach supplemental to prove a point. I think there are valid arguments against cap/step. But to argue that it isn't fair to a non-club member is complete b.s. in my opinion. If you are a non club member and don't like what is going in in the sport, tough crap. My biggest concern is there are 25,000 or so members in the AWSC, thats a half million in rewards. Where does that money get taken from that could be used elsewhere? What if membership doubles? Thats a million bucks. Is that worth it? I don't know the answer to that. But I cannot grasp the fact a non club member would be up in arms cause he was charged $30 a year and a member who puts in hours of volunteer time only pays $15. How can an intelligent person argue against that? Its not like the member is doing a easy job just to put some time in. If they were not there, there would be no trail. Not a unbrushed, unmowed, ungroomed peice of arse trail. NO TRAIL!
    The crap step (snowmobile elimination program) does not address the supplemental pay, yes there will be more funding then currently but what if the src increases the supplemental pay out to a crazy rate and they use up all the money and we don't have enough to pay out at the whole 100%. This is the same premise as now, becasue we have so many pay outs we run down the funds and then are hit with a pro rate.
    Some clubs do stop grooming and then people stop riding those trails, sort of a backfired plan.

    Non club members are not the minority but the majority here, so to think that the non member wont care I disagree. The non members will balk at being penalized for not belonging to a club, some will just join a club to get a discount and others will not. Just because a person joins does not mean they will help or volunteer, ask the New York program about that.
    What if for some crazy reason we get a 100% participation for clubs? (NY has about 90%) Using the 100% the awsc (always wanting snowmobilers cash) gains to see 2.2 million, this is not the clubs that gain the millions but the aswc (biting the hand that feeds). That is 2.2 million that could help the snowmobile program, help the clubs get paid for their time and money put out. So I guess I should say always wasting snowmobilers cash...

    To say that the non club member has no say? Why? They buy their trail passes and pay into the state program, they buy our club raffle tickets, our trail maps, contribute to the groomer fund, they visit our club houses, buy our food and drink, they visit our sponsors and buy food, drink, gas, parts, clothing, snowmobiles, they participate in our activities (ie poker rides, radar runs...) they attend and purchase items at our fund raisers such as the pancake breakfast...and then we give them the middle finger and say pay up?

    The argument is that 80% of the work is done by 20% of the members here, why should a member who just pays money to the club be entitled to a discount on a the registration? (and before you ask it, YES I am a club member)

    If not for the land owners there would be NO TRAIL!

  34. #134
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    10-3-13 update

    Sounds like the results of the hearing today in Madison that the Modified Cap/Step was passed by a vote of 12-1. Attached is what was listed on the AWSC Web Site for the modified version...
    IMG_3891 (800x600).jpg

  35. #135
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    And while mentioning the word "landowner" in your post, Speedy, it needs to be noted here that with CRAP/STEP, that word doesn't seem to come up as one of their exemptions. So now, we who contact landowners for permission every fall might have to say "...Oh, by the way, AWSC wants all non-club members who own snowmobiles to pay an extra $20 to ride the trails, just so you know when you go out and ride the trail that crosses your land..." OMG, guess where that trail just went.

  36. #136
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    Hate to say this, but I think consolidation of clubs is still needed for some areas. Locally here we have 5 clubs within the county and some are literally separated by less than 6 miles. Yeah, we share grooming cost which has helped alleviate loss on that end along with renting out the tractors during the summer we manage to make a small gain to offset grooming costs but most years it is break even. I think with consolidating clubs more mileage would go to one club instead of 3 small ones and that club can then focus where needed. Yes, it isn't the cure but a start. STEP is not a cure, as I have said before it doesn't address a system that has flaws and until those flaws are fixed the clubs will still not have the money for bridges, new trails and upgrading of the trail system, and that is where the focus of the money needs to be, not on grooming or equipment but on the boots on the ground.

    Here in the LaCrosse area we feel development pressure, and loss of land to it and the trails we do have need to be upgraded and maintained. We have the club members although it is largely an older group doing the work, the question is where do you find a way to save trails, make new ones and get young people to join a club? That's the basic questions..

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by blu2u2 View Post
    10-3-13 update

    Sounds like the results of the hearing today in Madison that the Modified Cap/Step was passed by a vote of 12-1. Attached is what was listed on the AWSC Web Site for the modified version...
    IMG_3891 (800x600).jpg
    Hats off to the one guy or gal that had the set of balls to vote no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  38. #138
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    And while mentioning the word "landowner" in your post, Speedy, it needs to be noted here that with CRAP/STEP, that word doesn't seem to come up as one of their exemptions. So now, we who contact landowners for permission every fall might have to say "...Oh, by the way, AWSC wants all non-club members who own snowmobiles to pay an extra $20 to ride the trails, just so you know when you go out and ride the trail that crosses your land..." OMG, guess where that trail just went


    Very good point. In our clubs case we have always made the landowner a member of our club, and a member of the AWSC. This way they will get the AWSC's magazine and maybe feel a bit more part of something and not just someone who is lending their property out. So this would not apply in our case. In my opinion something every club should be doing regardless of cap/step.

  39. #139
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    The above modification didn't make the vote, the src approved LRB-2943 plus:

    -$5 late fee for trail pass bought after December 1st (yearly)
    -Vintage sleds be exempt from displaying a trail pass, vintage was defined as 30 years or older from the current year
    - Raising the non-resident trail pass fee to $50 (yearly)

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky367 View Post
    Here in the LaCrosse area we feel development pressure, and loss of land to it and the trails we do have need to be upgraded and maintained. We have the club members although it is largely an older group doing the work, the question is where do you find a way to save trails, make new ones and get young people to join a club? That's the basic questions..
    We have the same issues here, I am one of the younger guys (in my 40'sssss), I am not sure what the answer is but heck I thought that's what we have the awsc for, aren't they spose to help us be successful as clubs? I guess I am starting to look at it this way, the awsc has no clue what we need to do and they for the past 9 years have kept telling us that if they polish this turd of crap step more it will be come gold...but its still a turd.

  41. #141
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    I just don't think you will ever please everyone when it comes to legislation like this. What one person likes, the next person hates. It's a vicious circle. I don't think the CAP/STEP is perfect, I would change something. But,right now we are as close to getting the extra funding we need as we have ever been. At our county meeting tonight most people thought that it isn't a perfect plan, LRB2943 that is, but it is close, and we need the funding. Our county voted to support the CAP Modifications. It was not unanimous, but the majority said yes. We need to get this passed now, or it may be years before we get anything else that raises some funds for us. Who wants to wait another few years before a new plan is developed? Not me. We need the funds now.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr37 View Post
    I just don't think you will ever please everyone when it comes to legislation like this. What one person likes, the next person hates. It's a vicious circle. I don't think the CAP/STEP is perfect, I would change something. But,right now we are as close to getting the extra funding we need as we have ever been. At our county meeting tonight most people thought that it isn't a perfect plan, LRB2943 that is, but it is close, and we need the funding. Our county voted to support the CAP Modifications. It was not unanimous, but the majority said yes. We need to get this passed now, or it may be years before we get anything else that raises some funds for us. Who wants to wait another few years before a new plan is developed? Not me. We need the funds now.
    All the awsc has done is held the program and funding hostage and this is playing right into their cards, we are so hurting for money we will take anything.

  43. #143
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    I ride 75% of the time in Wis so makes since to reg there. I'm from Wi so I know the trails very well. I belong to a club in MN and ride here one or two times a year. I put about 2100 miles on this pass season.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr37 View Post
    I like to look at it as a reward for club members. I realize that a few members do all the work, but think of all the time those few donate. I don't see non-club members rushing to join a club over this, but I do think current members will appreciate the "reward". Maybe we should look at it as being a "thank you" to club members from non members.
    I don't see the "penalty" argument either. I dont even call it a reward. It's simply a choice of where do you want your money to go.

    A) Dont join a club and send your entire check to the DNR

    or

    B) Join a club, send a check to them for $20 and send the remainder to the DNR.

    So in choice "A" we send everything to the DNR and pray that it comes back to our trails. Or in choice "B" we can give our club $20 DIRECTLY and know exactly where the $20 is used.

    This sport is F'ed if riders would fight an increase in program revenue just because you don't want to join a local club.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowshoe View Post
    I don't see the "penalty" argument either. I dont even call it a reward. It's simply a choice of where do you want your money to go.

    A) Dont join a club and send your entire check to the DNR

    or

    B) Join a club, send a check to them for $20 and send the remainder to the DNR.

    So in choice "A" we send everything to the DNR and pray that it comes back to our trails. Or in choice "B" we can give our club $20 DIRECTLY and know exactly where the $20 is used.

    This sport is F'ed if riders would fight an increase in program revenue just because you don't want to join a local club.
    snowshoe,

    Its pretty simple: if you don't join, you pay up! Why don't you explain how it is not a penalty?

    Maybe there is a need for some education on the program here, in choice B the money does not all go to the clubs, the club gains a big $10 and the awsc (always wasting snowmobilers cash) get their $10. So if 10 people join a single club the club gains $100 and they might be able to buy pizza for the club. Now if 10 people join 100 clubs now the awsc (always wanting snowmobilers cash) is gaining $1000.....

  46. #146
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    Its not a penalty cause the people who put in the trails that everyone is riding on gets the reward. Why would you as a snowmobiler, argue that someone who works on the trails should not get a break on registration? The AWSC is not after cash, the are after increased membership. That is what gives the sport power in Madison. Cash also helps in Madison. If you haven't noticed, there are groups out there who would like to see us go away. There battlefield against us is the Capitol Building. Unfortunately we need to get involved in politics to fight these people, and numbers in the AWSC is the best way to do it. Do I agree with everything the AWSC does? No. But they do tons more good for the sport that I do agree with, then I don't. What is your alternative to the AWSC? If they are no longer there who is there to take their place? DNR? A committee appoinited by the Governor? No thank you to those options!

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy View Post
    snowshoe,

    Its pretty simple: if you don't join, you pay up! Why don't you explain how it is not a penalty?
    It's not a penalty because non-club members and club members will be charged the same amount to ride trails.

    Let's do the math on to prove my point. These numbers are based on LRB 2943 which is now 2013 Assembly Bill 407.

    The non-club member will pay:
    $30 every 2 years for sled registration (AWSC wanted to change this to $30 every 3 years by the way)
    +$34.25 yearly for a trail pass
    Total $64.25 entire amount payable to the DNR

    The Club member will pay:
    $30 every 2 years for sled registration
    $20 Club membership dues (my club actually charges $30 but they are all different)
    +$14.25 yearly trail pass
    Total $64.25 only $44.25 sent to the DNR and $20 to your club

    It's the same cost to ride being a club member or not, so nobody is being penalized for not being in a club.

    So like I said before, do you want all $64.25 to go to the DNR and hope it gets to the trails you ride? Or do you want to give the club who maintains your trails $20 directly WITHOUT DNR intervention and only send the DNR $40? I'm all for giving the DNR or any State department less of my money!

  48. #148
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    It needs to be clarified that the AWSC gets $10 for each club membership be it family or individual. In snowshoes' example above; yes the club would get to keep the $20 for each membership since the club does charge $30 total. Most clubs charge $25 so after the AWSC takes their share the club has $15 left.

    Unless clubs get 4 to 5 times their current membership in new members this will not be bringing a substantial amount of new funds to the club. Lets say the average size club in WI is 85 members. Now take the 85 times 2 (if this would cause twice as many to join a club) we are only talking another $1,275 to $1,700 of new money to the club. This wouldn't even cover the cost of fuel for most clubs let alone the insurance, equipment, ect....

    As a club membership chair and treasurer I would love to see more members join. However with this comes a lot of extra time involved! It would likely cause me to step down since the current number (110-120) keeps me busy. If the system was streamlined so members would be required to pay by lets say the 1st of December then it wouldn't be so bad as I could send all the members in at once vs. every couple of weeks.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by renegade View Post
    Its not a penalty cause the people who put in the trails that everyone is riding on gets the reward. Why would you as a snowmobiler, argue that someone who works on the trails should not get a break on registration? The AWSC is not after cash, the are after increased membership. That is what gives the sport power in Madison. Cash also helps in Madison. If you haven't noticed, there are groups out there who would like to see us go away. There battlefield against us is the Capitol Building. Unfortunately we need to get involved in politics to fight these people, and numbers in the AWSC is the best way to do it. Do I agree with everything the AWSC does? No. But they do tons more good for the sport that I do agree with, then I don't. What is your alternative to the AWSC? If they are no longer there who is there to take their place? DNR? A committee appoinited by the Governor? No thank you to those options!
    I argue this because as a member who does work on the trails I think it is just absurd that we think we should get paid to do our work that we VOLUNTEER for.
    awsc not after cash? REALLY???? If that's not the fact then why the cap step? cap step involves more money, and all the awsc execs have clearly said it is a money and membership program, so if you would like to say different then you need to argue this with the executive board.
    The awsc is a business if they go away someone else will take their place...
    BTW the committee appointed by the governor is made up mostly of awsc execs and members....

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowshoe View Post
    It's not a penalty because non-club members and club members will be charged the same amount to ride trails.

    Let's do the math on to prove my point. These numbers are based on LRB 2943 which is now 2013 Assembly Bill 407.

    The non-club member will pay:
    $30 every 2 years for sled registration (AWSC wanted to change this to $30 every 3 years by the way)
    +$34.25 yearly for a trail pass
    Total $64.25 entire amount payable to the DNR

    The Club member will pay:
    $30 every 2 years for sled registration
    $20 Club membership dues (my club actually charges $30 but they are all different)
    +$14.25 yearly trail pass
    Total $64.25 only $44.25 sent to the DNR and $20 to your club

    It's the same cost to ride being a club member or not, so nobody is being penalized for not being in a club.

    So like I said before, do you want all $64.25 to go to the DNR and hope it gets to the trails you ride? Or do you want to give the club who maintains your trails $20 directly WITHOUT DNR intervention and only send the DNR $40? I'm all for giving the DNR or any State department less of my money!
    Hit the brakes.......

    So you first say we all pay the same and then you state that you pay more....so how is that the same?

    Non awsc club member will pay:
    $30 - 2yr
    +$34.25- trail pass
    +$20 membership dues to my club.
    $84.25 TOTAL I dont see the same total here....hmmmm

    So in review NO we all do not pay the same

    There are some VERY good tools on the WI DNR site that can help you understand that snowmobile program and where your registration dollars go, I would suggest you check that out for some fact checking.

  51. #151
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    The awsc is a business if they go away someone else will take their place...
    BTW the committee appointed by the governor is made up mostly of awsc execs and members....
    Who would you like to see take there place? They are absolutely a business. They represent snowmobilers in Madison and even in Washington. Like it or not, it needs to happen, and it takes money to do that. I have no problem giving them some of my money to do this. They do lots of good things with it. Ever been to a convention? They can be a place to learn new things, not always, but sometimes. And the Miss Snowflake Pageant is a pretty neat program for young women in snowmobiling. Not to mention the youth programs they are trying to grow.

    And what happens when a anti-snowmobiling governor gets elected? Do you think the SRC will be made up of Snowmobilers then? I don't. And just out of curiousity, what did the AWSC do to turn you and your club (I assume your club is not a member by your post) against them? Not trying to make you any more angry, I want to see your side of things.

  52. #152
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    I too have been a longtime member of AWSC but then turned away in the early 2000’s when their conventions and workshops started painting the wrong picture, and then this hairbrained Cap/Step stuff started rearing its ugly head. Two different fees, based on who you are and whether or not you belong to AWSC??? Come on now. This is wrongful and needs to go away once and for all. In answer to this poll (ideas for increased funding) the solution for more funding is so simple and straight-forward that its is hard for anyone to not see it – raise the registration fees for all snowmobile owners equally and get rid of the discrimination and prejudice like many legislators have already said. Why are we still considering Cap/Step? It won’t guaranty any new active members (they are already out their and in the clubs and putting in the trails like the non-AWSC club members are doing now).

    A registration increase for all snowmobiler owners would be supported by ALL, so it would pass. If you need some background on this claim “…supported by all…” go back and look at your September 1986 Wisconsin Snowmobile News magazine on page 6. AWSC’s executive director Art Sherren stated, as AB772 was being signed by Gov. Earl, “This new funding results from a registration increase of $4 per year which again shows that snowmobilers are willing to pay their own way.” Well, that’s the way I always thought it was, snowmobilers paid their own way, and then volunteers did the work by their own choice. So now when did this change?

    This Cap/Step debate is ongoing, and is a fairly long thread now under a poll started to explore other funding increase ideas. So now, let’s look at another poll that was taken, this one by AWSC that probably had absolutely no input from non-club members. This poll asked seven questions and was done to provide information to AWSC that would give them feedback to suggest whether or not to pursue a two-tier registration system. Question #4 asked: Do you support mandatory club requirement, results were; yes-279, and no-140. Question #5 asked: If it were the only legislation we could get passed, would you support mandatory AWSC membership only; yes-218, and no-199. You can view the entire article on page 23 of the February 2004 issue of Wisconsin Snowmobile News. Now wouldn’t you think that those results would have told AWSC right up front that legislation such as Cap/Step is a bad idea from the start, especially when the votes on those two questions already had a great deal of opposition—right within their own organization??? And then, under AWSC’s comments on the poll, the article showed what were called POSITIVE and NEGATIVE observations. For question #4 a negative observation was “Some would still not participate in club functions but we would have their dollars.” That pretty much says it all—AWSC wants snowmobilers dollars!!!

    And, Oh yes, I used to go to the AWSC workshops and conventions, but the drunkenness was so embarrassing I quit going, and I also became more and more scared for my family when out riding that they might be meeting some of those AWSC directors and leaders operating impaired like I had witnessed at some of their high level functions. Well, OK, they weren’t driving snowmobiles up and down the motel/hotel hallways, but they sure made an impression on me—and this impression was very, very low and irresponsible from what are supposed to be our snowmobile leaders.

  53. #153
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    This has gone on a long time, and I'm just not going to argue with anyone. Everyone has their opinion, and some people won't budge.

    Just a couple of my points:

    1.AWSC to go away, someone else will take over. Are you kidding. Who would start a grass roots push with volunteers to take over for the AWSC. The only one that would take over would be the DNR. I sure would'nt want that.

    2.The CAP/STEP is not perfect by any means, but it is as close to getting the needed funding as we have been in years. To through it away now would mean no new funding for many years to come. Even if this passes we won't see it take effect until 2015. I don't think any club wants to wait 5 years or more for a new bill to pass to receive more funding. We need it now.

    3.I don't think many members want to be paid. We do it because we love the sport. Charging someone that does nothing for the sport is ok with me. I just wish it was more than $20.

    4.The last paragraph above does not paint a true picture of of the many men and women volunteers that are Directors and Reps. I take offense at those comments.There is no doubt that there is some hard partyers at these events, but there are many good people there with good intentions. They are there to support their clubs and to try and help make the sport something for future generations to enjoy. I have met some very good people there, and guys like blu2u2 will be missed there. Guys with that passion for the sport are important to our future. I don't always agree with him, but I sure do respect him.

    5. I don't always agree with the AWSC leaders, but I do beleive they have our best interests at heart. They are snowmobilers, and they want future generations to enjoy the sport also.

    Let it snow, Let it snow, Let it snow..................

  54. #154
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    I did not participate in the AWSC til about 04, I was a member, but hadn't been to convention, so I would love to here what the "Wrong picture" actually means. Drinking responsibly at a hotel and having shuttles for people that needed to stay at another hotel is not the "wrong" picture to me. It's a great opportunity to socialize with other club members, find out what problems they have in their clubs, with grooming equipment, landowner easements, or anything about snowmobiling. And more importantly, how they solved the problems regarding these issues. If you want these conventions dry, that probably won't happen. The drinking doesnt start til after the dinner, and one can always leave after the dinner. And that being said, I really can't remember someone so drunk they can't walk or talk. But then again, they are not driving anywhere. I can not speak of how the directors ride on the trails, I have never rode with any. I agree word for word what jr37 posts. AWSC is not perfect, niether is cap/step. But they are 100% better than no one standing up for snowmobilers. If they were to go away, I really don't think all the non club members and non volunteers will wake up and say "Now is the time to get involved!" And if you don't like the picture they are painting, don't leave, pick up a brush and help change the picture.

  55. #155
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Dane, WI
    Posts
    32

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    So here we are. The thread seems to have reached or is reaching an end, and if we explore all the discussion it seems quite plain that Cap/Step, although opposed, is supported by many, while a registration increase equal for everyone, also opposed, is an alternate supported by many.
    I, too, refuse to argue, but rather stick to pointing out facts on both sides of Cap/Step.
    More money is needed, all agree.
    More club volunteers are needed, all agree but it is still being debated.
    The clubs deserve better than what they are now receiving, both in funding levels and volunteers, and this has been the status for many years now.
    This poll asked for funding increase suggestions, so we should probably stick to that issue. Cap/Step would definitely increase AWSC’s treasury by $10 per new member but none of this $10 would directly go out to the clubs for trail purposes. The clubs deserve better than this.
    The snowmobile program would also receive additional funding at the state level from Cap/Step in the form of the trail pass startup for everyone, with non-club members paying more than club members, and most of this would go into the snowmobile program, to go back to the clubs in the form of grants for bridges, signs, labor, and other qualifying expenses. If AB407 passes, it would go into effect on July 1, 2015. The clubs deserve better than this. Exactly when the additional funding might become available for return to the clubs is unknown, because exactly how Cap/Step would be implemented is unknown. Also unknown is how much more funding might become available. Then it must also be considered that if Cap/Step were to be brought into the court system to determine the legality of it, this could be dragged out and appealed for an unknown amount of time. The clubs deserve better than this.
    The comment that Cap/Step needs to be passed because it has just been already dragged out too long is also valid. But if we are going to get some kind of increased funding through some type of bill we need to put our best foot forward on this and do it right the first time, so some type of “cleanup bill” isn’t needed right away to fix something. The clubs deserve better than this.
    A registration increase across the board for all snowmobile owners could be done now, and become effective probably by July 1, 2014 if everyone could come together and support this. The clubs deserve this and many legislators have been leaning towards this anyway for years now. This would also make the snowmobile bill opposition disappear from the Capitol.
    Maybe it is just plain time for AWSC to quietly let Cap/Step disappear, and support a registration increase without the two-tier concept. It is the “two-tier” fee that is holding up everything. Without two-tier fees, a snowmobile bill for a registration increase would likely fly through the Capitol. I have been a long time proud member of AWSC and do not want them to go away. I even chaired one of the workshops back in the 90’s. But the clubs cannot keep waiting, year after year, for something that “might” happen, and even then with an unknown outcome. A registration increase for all is the best answer to this poll from all of the 154 comments that I have been reading, and we need to get it done now. The clubs deserve this. Our clubs are filled with hard working members, who have joined and volunteered to do what they do by their choice. They need to be rewarded by seeing something pass through the Capitol that will help them out, ASAP, without the opposition and uncertainty of Cap/Step. Let’s get it done.
    And in closing, in the back of my mind I keep thinking “…OK, maybe we should just let Cap/Step pass if that is what it is going to take…” but then a deeper concern is “…but our clubs deserve better than this…so let’s get it done right the first time so they can receive more funding quicker, easier, and more reliably, and if we really do it right, we can have a trail pass system that doesn’t even require another decal for our snowmobiles, and also has a way for an increase that is based on the cost of living index like Michigan has; plus we can even keep our two-year program that has built in stability, is already in effect, and works, could still renew our registrations on-line too.

  56. #156
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Appleton, WI
    Posts
    342

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    I could not have said it better myself zozo2...! The primary reason I started this thread was to try to gather other snowmobilers input on how WI can try to resolve the lack of funds for the trail system.
    About 3-4 years ago when I was on board the busses that went to Madison to rally for the CAP/STEP my local senator had the balls to tell the 15-20 AWSC members that were sitting in his office that we need to get an across the board fee increase. During this rally my eyes and mind were opened.
    It will be very interesting to see what the AWSC will do if the current version of the CAP/STEP fails to get passed. At the last AWSC Convention (Spring of 2012) that I attended; I recall the AWSC stating that they would be open to other options to get more funding to the clubs. It appears that the CAP/STEP is the ONLY way the AWSC will consider getting more money!
    Everyone has a right to their opinions on this issue. I really appreciate the remarks that have been made both for and against the CAP/STEP. Time will tell what becomes of this…

  57. #157

    Default

    The clubs and the program need more money to operate if we are going to maintain the system we have. Simple plan = let's just raise the yearly fee to levels seen in Ontario, Quebec and Vermont (?).....$200+ per year to ride on the trails? I'm in.

    Let the howling dogs bark! LOL!!!

  58. #158
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Merrill,Wi
    Posts
    401

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    I don't think $200 is the correct way to go. But I think $50 per year Trail pass plus a one time $50 registration is just about right.

    The nickel dime BS AWSC is pushing is not going to put money in anyones pocket but the AWSC.

    I will send my Money to the DNR if this passes, I know that will make it to the Clubs through the program.

    Also, it seems its ok not to belong to a Club as long as you send the extra dough to the DNR. I bet I will save a couple hundred Dollars a year I spend working on the Trails. I spent $20 last weekend on gas fixing a Fence on my Trail section last weekend.

    The math does not make any sense and it will not work.

    One more question, I own 3 Sleds . Does that mean I get reduced registration on all 3 ??

  59. #159
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Dane, WI
    Posts
    32

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    Actually, longtrack, if you are a club member and Cap/Step passes, you would get the reduced rate on all your sleds, not sure how it might work though if some of the sleds were in your wife's name. That is one of the many, many unresolved issues with implementation of Cap/Step. But if you are not a club member, and Cap/Step passes, you would have to pay the higher rate on every sled you own. Senator Grothman introduced an amendment to Cap/Step to fix that, but it never went anywhere, and Cap/Step that year never got out of committee anyway.

  60. #160
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Marathon,WI
    Posts
    1,587

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    longtrack, the one time registration will never fly in Wisconsin. Every registration counts when figuring the gas take that the program recieves. If you only had to reg. once, the program would lose tons of gas tax money. That is a big figure, so one time registration won't happen. I would, though, like to see the trail pass go away and just raise the registration. To me a trail pass is just a hidden registration increase. Raise registraion and be done.

  61. #161
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Dane, WI
    Posts
    32

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    jr37 you are right on. This too (a straight one-time registration increase) has been debated many times, and the reason a trail pass tied to cost of living changes started to emerge as a possibility was to build some type of automatic increases into the (registration) process without having to go back and re-do legislation to keep up with cost of living changes...but a straight registration increase would be fine with me and I believe most legislators, snowmobilers in general, etc. So lets do it. Might also save me from having to go to the Capitol to testify against something not good for the program.

  62. #162
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin Rapids
    Posts
    302

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy View Post
    Hit the brakes.......

    So you first say we all pay the same and then you state that you pay more....so how is that the same?

    Non awsc club member will pay:
    $30 - 2yr
    +$34.25- trail pass
    +$20 membership dues to my club.
    $84.25 TOTAL I dont see the same total here....hmmmm

    So in review NO we all do not pay the same

    There are some VERY good tools on the WI DNR site that can help you understand that snowmobile program and where your registration dollars go, I would suggest you check that out for some fact checking.
    Actually you're wrong with the numbers. A trail pass for club members is $14 not $34.

  63. #163
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Marathon,WI
    Posts
    1,587

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowshoe View Post
    Actually you're wrong with the numbers. A trail pass for club members is $14 not $34.
    You will actually pay $15. $14.25 goes for the pass, .75 for the vendor i believe.

  64. #164
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Appleton, WI
    Posts
    342

    Default

    Ttt

  65. #165
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Phelps, WI
    Posts
    5,963

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    This poll is so old... yes a good read.... but as far as poll goes it should be rerun. The reason I say that is I was not sure what to do but warmed up to Cap/Step via informative discussions on JD. None of us know how the final details of the bill will emerge but certainley not worried about speed limits seeping in just not about that.

  66. #166
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Appleton, WI
    Posts
    342

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    Thanks for your remarks whitedust! It is an old poll that I put together when I was very active with the AWSC. I wanted to try and gather others opinion on what should be done to get more funds back to the vital link (clubs) that allow the trails in WI to exist. From the very low number of votes it looks like my attempt was not as planned...

  67. #167
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Phelps, WI
    Posts
    5,963

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    Quote Originally Posted by blu2u2 View Post
    Thanks for your remarks whitedust! It is an old poll that I put together when I was very active with the AWSC. I wanted to try and gather others opinion on what should be done to get more funds back to the vital link (clubs) that allow the trails in WI to exist. From the very low number of votes it looks like my attempt was not as planned...
    I came around to support Cap/Step & think others did too & will just need to sort it out & understand that more money is needed & how to best do that.

  68. #168
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Spooner, WI
    Posts
    2,912

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    I'm all for it, but keep the darn stickers small! Soon we will have nothing but stickers on our sled. One for the UP, 2 for WI and at least one more if you want to ride in MN! Did I ever mention I hate extra registration and trail stickers on my sled! LOL

  69. #169
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin Rapids
    Posts
    302

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    Quote Originally Posted by blu2u2 View Post
    Thanks for your remarks whitedust! It is an old poll that I put together when I was very active with the AWSC. I wanted to try and gather others opinion on what should be done to get more funds back to the vital link (clubs) that allow the trails in WI to exist. From the very low number of votes it looks like my attempt was not as planned...
    I hoped it helped inform some people and maybe even persuade them like whitedust said. It could also show that there is a general apathy to the trails and how they come to be every year. I hope it's just because back in October web traffic was down and now with the early winter people are out riding and not on here.

  70. #170
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Appleton, WI
    Posts
    342

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    Thanks to a member on this site for pointing out that I may not be aware of the CAP/STEP "buzz"!

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