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 Originally Posted by xcr440
Well, obviously I am not as informed as I should be. Maybe it is a viable solution, or option. Thanks for the info. It would probably increase riding permit sales if they could do such a thing for sledders.
Maybe.
Last edited by polarisrider1; 05-17-2012 at 10:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by polarisrider1
Maybe, pee pantss whiners will be pee pants whiners.
Who crapped in your oatmeal tonight??
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Originally Posted by Dave_B
Who crapped in your oatmeal tonight??
lol, no doubt!
Last edited by polarisrider1; 05-17-2012 at 10:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dave_B
Who crapped in your oatmeal tonight??
And we're off! Must be summer. ****, I even started a sled yesterday just to hear it!
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Originally Posted by whitedust
Yep Canada does it all the time with their time sensitive permits look at their model. To me enforcement is an excuse & should not block a 3 day permit. We want people to buy MI trail permits & not shy away from the area due to permit costs. I can say I have never been stopped while sleddin in UPMI since 1980 so to me what enforcement? It is more of an homor system IMO...do the right thing. 
My sentiments, too. I don't see why enforcement of temporary permits should be any different from season permits. But I've only been checked for permits once in 18 years of riding and during that time seen LEO's on the trails maybe a dozen times or so.
Make the temp permit a different color from the full season permits, and write in its effective dates with a permanent marker. If LEO checks a temp permit he/she can tell right away if the dates are valid. Of course, it would probably require a stop and not just a passing visual check.
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I think the fee increase is having a larger affect then they expected. We take 3 club trips a year 40-60 people per trip. IN years past 30-40 would buy Michigan trail passes and go to the U.P and the past 2 about 10 have, the rest saying We will just ride Northern Wi and save the 45 bucks. I know 45 bucks is nothing when you price out what is cost to snowmobile, but to me the U.P is not worth 45 bucks for a couple days of riding. I think a lot more people who are not on John dee have this attitude. I figured with the U.P having the Best snow conditions around this year, even with the lack of snow they had that everybody would have been forced there but i guess that did not happen. Like john said sales may have been down in lower Michigan to. Just my 2 cents.
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Originally Posted by tomx
Several Wisconsin riders I know said they did not buy an MI permit due to the increase in price. I'll bet they're not the only ones who feel this way. Could have contributed to the decreased sales, but as others have said time will tell.
X2
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I would just like to clear things up a bit too. Nowhere in the UP had a "good" snow year this past season. All areas were subjected to several, unusually strong thaws. There were periods where spots in the UP had good or even great conditions, but these good to great conditions did not exist for long periods of time in most cases.
Also, snowfall in most areas from around Marquette east was well below average and most areas east of Marquette would have been considered to have had a poor season.
Not saying that is the whole reason for the decrease, just saying it was a pretty poor snow season this year in the UP and lower MI.
-John
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Originally Posted by ridindirty800
Like john said sales may have been down in lower Michigan to.
Pretty sure the 35% decline is statewide, not just the U.P.
The fee increase is likely part of it, but the lack of snow surely didn't help. Riding in the L.P. was severely limited this season.
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Originally Posted by Administrator
I would just like to clear things up a bit too. Nowhere in the UP had a "good" snow year this past season. All areas were subjected to several, unusually strong thaws. There were periods where spots in the UP had good or even great conditions, but these good to great conditions did not exist for long periods of time in most cases.
Also, snowfall in most areas from around Marquette east was well below average and most areas east of Marquette would have been considered to have had a poor season.
Not saying that is the whole reason for the decrease, just saying it was a pretty poor snow season this year in the UP and lower MI.
-John
Flip side of that John is the rest of the midwest had little or no rideable snow so where you going to ride? IMO the best available area was UPMI & Northern WI. From my seat time you could ride the UPMI more than any other midwest trail area & conditions were pretty darn good...Traffic took its toll but all in all pretty good riding Central & Western UPMI. You have to take what you can get every year or you will be sitting in front of the TV hoping for better conditions that never happens. I agree lower MI did suffer condition wise but to be off by 35% goes deeper than snow conditions. All the snowmo biz owners in Central & Western UPMI that I talked to said they had outstanding seasons. Seasons of a lifetime with the only midwest area with snow to ride trails a biz owners dream come true & well deserved. Always will be trade offs depending on where snow falls & does not fall but 35% less permits goes deeper than snow conditions & MI weekend permit is a must to keep riders flowing thruout MI IMO.
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Originally Posted by whitedust
Flip side of that John is the rest of the midwest had little or no rideable snow so where you going to ride? IMO the best available area was UPMI & Northern WI. From my seat time you could ride the UPMI more than any other midwest trail area & conditions were pretty darn good...Traffic took its toll but all in all pretty good riding Central & Western UPMI. You have to take what you can get every year or you will be sitting in front of the TV hoping for better conditions that never happens. I agree lower MI did suffer condition wise but to be off by 35% goes deeper than snow conditions. All the snowmo biz owners in Central & Western UPMI that I talked to said they had outstanding seasons. Seasons of a lifetime with the only midwest area with snow to ride trails a biz owners dream come true & well deserved. Always will be trade offs depending on where snow falls & does not fall but 35% less permits goes deeper than snow conditions & MI weekend permit is a must to keep riders flowing thruout MI IMO.
I agree, in a crappy season for the entire Midwest, the western UP and northern WI were the "least crappy" and benefited with good business. Most of the businesses I spoke with agreed with your findings that this season was very good.
My point (probably poorly put) was that all MI trail permits are not purchased only for the western UP and that because of consistently poor conditions elsewhere in the state, permit sales would likely be impacted negatively. Also, when snow is not good in all of the Midwest, folks are just not as in the mood to play in it as if the winter is going as most would like it. I will agree that it will also cause a concentration of riding where the snow is best, but good conditions in the western UP cannot make up for poor conditions in the rest of the state. It's a big state when you combine both the upper and lower!
I would be interested to know what permit sales were like in other states as a comparison.
-John
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I would be interested to know what permit sales were like in other states as a comparison.
-John[/QUOTE]
That would be interesting. I wonder if someone can find that info out??
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I'm sure permit sales were down with no wide spread snow in WI. WI had only the northern counties with snowcover for trail riding. Riding south of Tomahawk was very spotty & breif. Riders from Tomahawk WI area were opting to ride Western UPMI & Central UPMI for better trail conditions so they were buying MI permits. The hardcore rider will buy permits & make the most of any season. The casusal weekend riders will look for best snow & resorts for a given weekend & bang for the buck. If MI can exist with just the hardcore riders & does not need the permit revenue from the casual weekend riders alright with me. My only skin in the game is my time & less sled traffic is better for me. Revenue biz wise MI is keeping the casusal weekend riders out of MI due to high permit cost for 2-3 days of riding for multiple sleds IMO. To me a low cost 2-3 day permit is necessary to capture all the biz you can attract. In my marketing days 35% decrease in sales in 1 year would cause many sleepless nights until I knew I had a handle on the cause & I would be proactive for change in areas of known weakness. I would never wait for the other boot to fall like wait till next year & we will see & exspect a decrease in sales to fix itself. An inexpensive MI weekend permit is an excellent idea to capture any lost biz regardless of areas of MI that have good snow or not. Many riders have posted their objection to $45 for trail permits for multiple sleds for breif weekend riding in MI. Why ignor them & their revenue? They can't buy a less expensive weekend trail permit if MI will not sell it. Create it & they will come & spend money otherwise they will ride in WI & not cross over into MI due to cost of permits in both states.
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Originally Posted by dcsnomo
And we're off! Must be summer. ****, I even started a sled yesterday just to hear it!
That is my plan for tomorrow 1. start the sled.
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Originally Posted by polarisrider1
That is my plan for tomorrow 1. start the sled.
What's 2.? Go back to bed
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Originally Posted by Dave_B
What's 2.? Go back to bed
sleeping on solid ground is 2.
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you have to pay for what you want.
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Round of golf,for you and the kids? Bears game with the kids? Hawks game with the kids? Lift tickets at the resort? Trail stickers are good for all season?Can I have 3 please!
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Originally Posted by Woodtic
Round of golf,for you and the kids? Bears game with the kids? Hawks game with the kids? Lift tickets at the resort? Trail stickers are good for all season?Can I have 3 please!
I see your point but I will pose this question: Have the prices of the recreational activities you mention more than doubled in the last 10 years?
I don't know the answer I'm just asking the question.
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Originally Posted by Administrator
I would just like to clear things up a bit too. Nowhere in the UP had a "good" snow year this past season. All areas were subjected to several, unusually strong thaws. There were periods where spots in the UP had good or even great conditions, but these good to great conditions did not exist for long periods of time in most cases.
Also, snowfall in most areas from around Marquette east was well below average and most areas east of Marquette would have been considered to have had a poor season.
Not saying that is the whole reason for the decrease, just saying it was a pretty poor snow season this year in the UP and lower MI.
-John
OK, let's take a look at the facts of the situation
Michigan snow sucked, credible source (above) has stated so
Permit sales are down
You need snow to go snowmobiling
I am not in charge of snow
The rest of you are not in charge of snow
We all know John is in charge of snow
Therefore...It's John's fault!
This is a pic I took of John and the snow button last year...it's on his desk.
John Dee and the snow button.jpg
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Originally Posted by dcsnomo
OK, let's take a look at the facts of the situation
Michigan snow sucked, credible source (above) has stated so
Permit sales are down
You need snow to go snowmobiling
I am not in charge of snow
The rest of you are not in charge of snow
We all know John is in charge of snow
Therefore...It's John's fault!
This is a pic I took of John and the snow button last year...it's on his desk.
John Dee and the snow button.jpg
Next season Bruce. I promise!
(got that one from the Cubs)
-John
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Truth be told,I was talking about selling my place in the UP. There were so many sleds and jag bags up there, I didnt want to go up there. With any luck, it will snow elsewhere. I will pay an extra 25 large persled , for it to snow in WIS or Lower MI.
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Originally Posted by Woodtic
Truth be told,I was talking about selling my place in the UP. There were so many sleds and jag bags up there, I didnt want to go up there. With any luck, it will snow elsewhere. I will pay an extra 25 large persled , for it to snow in WIS or Lower MI.
Yep I won't be too disappointed when snow falls south now. Too many sleds cramed in 1 area last season burned trails down quickly. Need to spread the snow to all areas in to have balance & good trail conditions everywhere.
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Another issue I didn't read was all the sleds running around my area with no permit at all. A cop or co could have had a field day at the gas stations some weekends writing tickets for no trail permit! Some of the locals here in the lower said they wouldn't be buying one with the price increase. With that mentality I think the ticket should be more than 65 bucks!
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Make the ticket for no permit a thousand bucks and it all should go to the trail fund. This would help offset the deficit for next year. (What the heck, I am sitting here in the dark, power went out) what are the thoughts on this?
Last edited by polarisrider1; 05-20-2012 at 10:48 PM.
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