Sooooooo Happy It Is Over!!

[jerkbait_1075]

Whether its a contract or a pension, If a city or goverment doesnt like the deal they entered into then dont enter into it in the first place?????? If the public decides they dont want to pay any portion of a public pension then fine..... Change it for new hires. but how do you take something away from a guy like me with 19 years in or the retired cop living on the deal they were "offered"???? Thats is simply not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fusion]

Whether its a contract or a pension, If a city or goverment doesnt like the deal they entered into then dont enter into it in the first place?????? If the public decides they dont want to pay any portion of a public pension then fine..... Change it for new hires. but how do you take something away from a guy like me with 19 years in or the retired cop living on the deal they were "offered"???? Thats is simply not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good point - and probably what it will eventually come to.
Just like social security grandfathering in everyone over a certain age, say 55.
Eventually you have to deal with government legacy costs to get a handle on spending and balance budgets.
One thing I want to make perfectly clear - I'm just arguing the extremes - in reality these issues are too toxic for any lawmaker to tackle in any aggressive way.
Scott Walker was very shrewd in discluding the fire fighters and police unions from his reforms.

[jerkbait_1075]

Fusion im glad we seem to find common ground. Believe you me, I totally get the goverment waste, overspending, ect. I applaud Walker, at least for his drive, determination and willingness to be the first to actually try and tackle the problem. While I might not totally agree with his entire method the man does deserve respect for his convictions and fighting for "change". My only complaint is with anyone that does not see the work of a police officer or firefighter seperate from and deserving different considerations than that of a Teacher, Judge, Legislature jerk at the capitol, highway worker, some sort of other state or goverment worker. To believe that Police work is overated concerning danger is just laughable. And to believe that simply raising the pay by 5 to 10% would have people knocking the door down to get the job is also laughable. When I was taking police exams to get hired in the 90's it was not uncommon to "test" with 200-400 other applicants to get one single position. In my area now the last time we tested 40 took out app's, like 28 showed up to take the physical exam, 25 pass the physical and took the written, we ended up with like a pool of 20 actual applicants. Then once you begin doing background examinations and psychological examinations we were lucky to end up with 10 actual canidates to consider. Then by the time you get around to hiring them half of those will already have jobs. Its not as easy as you think it might be. And to suggest that any person in the public would be ok with just anyone being a cop because they are willing to take the job?? Do you really want a person out there with a badge and a gun in that position of authority just because "anyone can do it". Or do you want the "right" qualified, educated and SCREENED person that is willing to take on such a "unique" ( I wont say challenging or dangerous cause we will go back to argueing) job. Who do you want pulling over your teenage daughter or helping your wife at 2 am. Some guy who can do the job because they raised the pay a bit or some guy who was screened and desires to do the job because. I also would argue that any cop that is lazy and donut eating is no different than any other employee in the private sector, GET RID OF THEM. I dont want that person on my shift or being my back up anyways. And there are dead beat cops out there!!!!! But if there system doesnt allow for those people to be fired than it is the "system" that is broken not the profession and the guys doing the job respectfully.....

[timo]

life isn't fair jerk bait. every where in america you read about hear about pensions being cut, insurance being slashed, wages being froze, benefits being trimmed. its the world we live in. while i respect your profession it is not your RIGHT to have a deal last a lifetime. i haven't has a raise in three years I know many people that have not had one in 5 years. How many raises have you had in 5? I imagine 5.

this is the new world we live in and peole have to get used to it.

Whether its a contract or a pension, If a city or goverment doesnt like the deal they entered into then dont enter into it in the first place?????? If the public decides they dont want to pay any portion of a public pension then fine..... Change it for new hires. but how do you take something away from a guy like me with 19 years in or the retired cop living on the deal they were "offered"???? Thats is simply not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jerkbait_1075]

Timo,

Actually no raises for the first two years of a three contract. We also willingly worked with the city and gave up retirement health ins but thanks for just assuming that all government workers are greedy bastards. We do get a two percent raise this last year of our contract.

[whitedust]

Timo,

Actually no raises for the first two years of a three contract. We also willingly worked with the city and gave up retirement health ins but thanks for just assuming that all government workers are greedy bastards. We do get a two percent raise this last year of our contract.

I don't know if we feel all public workers are greedy but the private sector has been taking it in the shorts for the pass 10-15 years when it comes to pensions & healthcare. Then the teachers went nuts when Walker & Christie had them pay more for healthcare which was way overdue. I think the WI teachers overreacted to the cuts brought the national media & unions into WI to demonstrate forced recall elections & generally turned the public against them. This was really bad PR & a lot of people felt the entire movement was sour grapes & a bunch of babies crying over nothing more than a trend in the private sector that had been present for many years. There is no "cake" out there worldwide for anyone public or private & it will be years before we recover from the Great Recession.

[michaeladams]

i am a VOLUTEER fire fighter. I never needed a police officer to protect me and i live so far out in the country that the only thing to save would be the basement. i say let them pay just like the rest of us.

[Skylar]

Jerkbait, what was the MOST important reason you became a police officer?

[russholio]

i am a VOLUTEER fire fighter. I never needed a police officer to protect me and i live so far out in the country that the only thing to save would be the basement. i say let them pay just like the rest of us.

So therefore, everybody lives so far out in the country that the only thing to save would be the basement?

Remember here, folks, that there are at least two parties involved in a contract. If the local/county/state government didn't like the terms of it, they weren't obligated to sign it. Takes two to tango -- be ticked at the cops and firefighters for pushing for such "sweet" deals if you must, but remember that their employers signed the contract, too.

And to those of you who think these jobs are just walks in the park, why don't you or why didn't you try a career in them (especially since the deals are so "sweet"?)

[dcsnomo]

Remember here, folks, that there are at least two parties involved in a contract. If the local/county/state government didn't like the terms of it, they weren't obligated to sign it.

But therein lies the problem. The issue is not that the government didn't like the contract. The issue is that the government is making contracts that do not reflect the will of the people, which is a rational view of revenue vs. expense. The government is fine with special interest contracts, the people are not.

That's what's driving the political unrest, IMHO. In the good old days of economic expansion we overlooked this because we were all getting a bigger share of an expanding pie. Now, the pie has shrunk, and these sweetheart deals don't look so "fair" anymore, and the only way to change them is to change the government, i.e. "throw out the idiots" who made the contracts.

Think about the pension mess in Illinois. Rational people would never have negotiated contracts like that in private industry, never. Read the Tribune series on pensions. Even if you only read 10% of the articles you will shake your head and mutter 'Who are the idiots that negotiated this?"

[mjkaliszak]

I told my wife .... It's a Good Thing , that he has gotten re-elected. She agreed. That's where we are at. ( WE ) the people need to take back control of this thing called " government ". It is a self serving pig, filled with lobbyists & corruption. Gov Walker simply had to address the situation, this may be uncomfortable for some to swallow but needed to be done. Plus it sets a good example of what is to come. Other states need to get with the program. " The pie " has shrunk.

Sorry, but I can't get into my biased view of Law enforcement, Fire fighters , Educators and any comparison to OUR Military.
There is no comparison. Short but simply put.

[michaeladams]

i volunteer not for the money. i volunteer for the greater good. i have a job in the private sector and pay for my retirement and healthcare just like an american should. too many people think they should get preferential treatment. just because you can doesn't mean you should. speaking of contracts, i don't remember voting on anything like that.

[russholio]

But therein lies the problem. The issue is not that the government didn't like the contract. The issue is that the government is making contracts that do not reflect the will of the people, which is a rational view of revenue vs. expense. The government is fine with special interest contracts, the people are not.

That's what's driving the political unrest, IMHO. In the good old days of economic expansion we overlooked this because we were all getting a bigger share of an expanding pie. Now, the pie has shrunk, and these sweetheart deals don't look so "fair" anymore, and the only way to change them is to change the government, i.e. "throw out the idiots" who made the contracts.

Think about the pension mess in Illinois. Rational people would never have negotiated contracts like that in private industry, never. Read the Tribune series on pensions. Even if you only read 10% of the articles you will shake your head and mutter 'Who are the idiots that negotiated this?"

I don't disagree at all. But instead of people being ticked at cops and firefighters for taking what was offered, they ought to direct their anger at the parties responsible for offering it. It's not the employee's job to figure out if their employer can afford the compensation package they offer -- that's why they have accountants and financial managers. It's also why we vote -- if you don't like the job somebody is doing (i.e., not reflective of the will of the people), then vote them out.

I told my wife .... It's a Good Thing , that he has gotten re-elected. She agreed. That's where we are at. ( WE ) the people need to take back control of this thing called " government ". It is a self serving pig, filled with lobbyists & corruption. Gov Walker simply had to address the situation, this may be uncomfortable for some to swallow but needed to be done. Plus it sets a good example of what is to come. Other states need to get with the program. " The pie " has shrunk.

Sorry, but I can't get into my biased view of Law enforcement, Fire fighters , Educators and any comparison to OUR Military.
There is no comparison. Short but simply put.

While I have nothing but respect and admiration for our military and would not necessarily compare their job with that of cops and firefighters, the fact is that they do share several similarities. That's part of the reason police departments and fire departments are called "paramilitary organizations".

i volunteer not for the money. i volunteer for the greater good. i have a job in the private sector and pay for my retirement and healthcare just like an american should. too many people think they should get preferential treatment. just because you can doesn't mean you should. speaking of contracts, i don't remember voting on anything like that.

If you volunteer for the greater good, then why not volunteer for your job in the private sector and save the company some money? I'm sure they'd appreciate it. Just because they're willing to pay you doesn't mean you should take it, right?

You as a taxpayer obviously don't get to vote on public employee contracts. You vote for somebody to do that for you and hope that they will represent your interests. If you don't like the job they do, then you vote them out.

I didn't pay into my retirement? Wow, I didn't know that. I guess I learned something new today.

[timo]

Exactly!!!!

i don't know if we feel all public workers are greedy but the private sector has been taking it in the shorts for the pass 10-15 years when it comes to pensions & healthcare. Then the teachers went nuts when walker & christie had them pay more for healthcare which was way overdue. I think the wi teachers overreacted to the cuts brought the national media & unions into wi to demonstrate forced recall elections & generally turned the public against them. This was really bad pr & a lot of people felt the entire movement was sour grapes & a bunch of babies crying over nothing more than a trend in the private sector that had been present for many years. There is no "cake" out there worldwide for anyone public or private & it will be years before we recover from the great recession.

[jerkbait_1075]

The reason I became a police officer was two fold. First I had a family member who was a long standing county sheriff. 30 plus years as elected sheriff. He was perhaps the hardest working man I have ever known. Day or night he was there. People in the county ousted to laugh saying that he must have slept with his cloths on. He slept with a scanner in his bedroom. House fire in the middle of the night? He was there in uniform. Truly an amazingly dedicated man. Secondly when I was young I watched as a police officers saved the life of a very close friend of mine. Not only was he there to help he was also the most compassion person in a time of crisis. I wil never forget that day. Since then I have always been truly respectful that any person would risk so much for a total stranger. Look. I totally get what you all are saying. I just think in the grand scheme of government waste of our taxpayer dollars there must be away to make concessions as a public sector worker and still get the finances under control. If you all feel that just ripping the bandaid off is the only way to fix the problem than I guesss the Feds should shut Medicare down tomorrow and let all the seniors take it in the shorts to........ Social security is equally bankrupt and a drain on the tax payer".... Shut that down to. And all of you who have paid money into social security get nothing back like your share you paid in just like Ihow you don't want me to get any of the ten percent that I have paid in to my pension for the last nineteen years. All these issues are complicated. I agree with changing, or phasing out any of these government programs including my pension put u just can't take everything away in one fail swoop....

[whitedust]

No you can't cut people off that have been paying for SS & Medicare all their lives but I'm sure someday an age line will be drawn in the sand & both those benes wil be modified to be within realistic budgets. You also need to be aware the Fed Gov has been skimming SS funds for years for other things so again do you trust the feds to make sure you get what you pay for? Your 19 years should be grandfathered not dismissed but dovetailed to fit your needs in future contracts that can be budgeted & supported.

[frnash]

First off, jerkbait, I respect your 19+ years of dedicated effort as a police officer/detective, and I mean no disrespect in the following. (Although I do wonder if the ability to write clear, concise, unambiguous police reports that are not at risk of misinterpretation isn't a requirement in most law enforcement agencies. Surely any competent defense attorney would enthusiastically pounce on any opportunity to exploit any such thing!)

Yet I have been accused in a different thread of "shirking" my duty as resident pedant!
Unfortunately your post has provided me with fertile ground to once again demonstrate my continuing assertion that English is a dying language! All in fun, of course — sort of.

pedant - a person who pays more attention to formal rules and book learning than they merit bookworm, scholastic purist - someone who insists on great precision and correctness (especially in the use of words) bookman, scholar, scholarly person, student - a learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines.

So nuthin' personal, but here we go!

… People in the county ousted [sic] to laugh saying that he must have slept with his cloths [sic] on.

[He was fired (ousted) for sleeping with "cloths" on? — No clothes, just Tarzan style loincloth(s)? — Or maybe wash cloths?]

… when I was young I watched as a police officers [sic] saved the life of a very close friend of mine.
Not only was he there to help he [sic] … was also the most compassion [sic] person in a time of crisis.

["a police officers"? Hmmm, I wonder was it "a (one) police officer" or (several) police officers?"]

["to help he"? desperately needs a comma: "to help, he" or more correctly a semi-colon: "to help; he", but hardly anyone understands the use of semi-colons!] — [and (a) compassion (vs. compassionate) person?]

I wil [okay, perhaps a 'nuther mere typo ] never forget that day.

If you all feel that just ripping the bandaid [sic] off is the only way to fix the problem than [sic] I guesss [okay, just a 'nuther typo? ] …

[Band-Aid ® — its a registered trademark!] … [(a) way to fix the problem — rather than ignore it?]

… the Feds should shut Medicare down tomorrow and let all the seniors take it in the shorts to [sic] …

[to what? To solve the problem?]

Social security is equally bankrupt and a drain on the tax payer [sic]".... Shut that down to [sic].

[taxpayer is one word!] — [again, to what? To solve the problem?]

And all of you who have paid money into social security get nothing back like your share you paid in just like Ihow [yet a 'nuther typo?] you don't want me to get any of the ten percent that I have paid in to my pension for the last nineteen years.

I agree with changing, or phasing out any of these government programs including my pension put [sic] u [I'll let 'u' have that 'u' as freebie!] — [and (your) pension "put me" where?] just can't take everything away in one fail [sic] swoop [vs. "one fell swoop"].

[(a) fail(ed) swoop"? vs. "one fell swoop"]

…

Spelling? Grammar? Proofreading too? (Notice I didn't say "to" as in "to Chicago, etc.) Editing? Sigh!

[russholio]

Aside from being enlightened today that I didn't actually pay into my pension like I thought I had and am therefore unworthy of being an American, I've also learned that the correct phrase is "one fell swoop". I would have typed it as "one felled swoop". For the latter lesson, Nash, I thank you!

[Skylar]

And to those of you who think these jobs are just walks in the park, why don't you or why didn't you try a career in them (especially since the deals are so "sweet"?)

True, but here is the problem I have with the public unions in Wisconsin compmaining about what they lost. If their job is so bad now, why don't they quit and come to the private sector? I know some probably have, but, every person that I know personally who works for the state of Wisconsin, has no intention whatsoever of quitting their current job, and going into the private sector. Why is that I wonder?

[russholio]

True, but here is the problem I have with the public unions in Wisconsin compmaining about what they lost. If their job is so bad now, why don't they quit and come to the private sector? I know some probably have, but, every person that I know personally who works for the state of Wisconsin, has no intention whatsoever of quitting their current job, and going into the private sector. Why is that I wonder?

For some/many of them, it might have lots to do with how long they've been on the job, have a family to support, etc. Pretty tough and probably not very wise to try and start a new career when you're 15 or 20 years into your current one.

[whitedust]

For some/many of them, it might have lots to do with how long they've been on the job, have a family to support, etc. Pretty tough and probably not very wise to try and start a new career when you're 15 or 20 years into your current one.

The average person will work about 40 years maybe more. Very few people stay with the same company private or public for 35 years or so & retire with a goldwatch. Those are bygone days of your grandfather. Now days you are a hired gun & move about every 5 years to greener fields so even at 20 years you are only 1/2 thru your employment life. Moving on after 15-20 years is NOT unusal these days & moving on is the new norm. If you have not moved on to another company in 20 years you are about to or the company will move you 1 way or the other. Sad but true!! I only know one person who had 20 years with the same company & at 20 years they cut him a package deal to move on & hired a less expensive youngster. He has since moved on 2 times in 8 years & is doing well & although the changes are difficult all in all very dobale & improved his life.

[Skylar]

For some/many of them, it might have lots to do with how long they've been on the job, have a family to support, etc. Pretty tough and probably not very wise to try and start a new career when you're 15 or 20 years into your current one.

I see your point, BUT, they do have the option to leave, especially younger people who have only been working 5-10 years for the state. Even with the amount of money they had to give up to contribute to their pension and health care, it is still, I think, for the most part, better than the private sector. I pay 40 percent of my health care costs.

I worked 20 years for the same place, quit in August of 2012 because the company filed chapter 11 last June, I decided it was time for me to leave. Trust me, I know all about leaving a long term job, having a family to support, starting over, starting at the bottom, etc. Scary for sure.

[russholio]

I see your point, BUT, they do have the option to leave, especially younger people who have only been working 5-10 years for the state. Even with the amount of money they had to give up to contribute to their pension and health care, it is still, I think, for the most part, better than the private sector. I pay 40 percent of my health care costs.

I worked 20 years for the same place, quit in August of 2012 because the company filed chapter 11 last June, I decided it was time for me to leave. Trust me, I know all about leaving a long term job, having a family to support, starting over, starting at the bottom, etc. Scary for sure.

I know you had to leave because your company folded, so you didn't have much choice. I'm just saying that changing horses midstream is not usually an enticing prospect (unless it's a career advancement opportunity), if they have a choice. Hey, nobody -- public sector or private sector -- wants to take cuts and/or make concessions. I think it's only natural that they grouse about it. I know that I did when we had to take them. But I'm a believer that no matter who you are, there's somebody else worse off. Bottom line is, yes, cuts and concessions stink. However, not having a job stinks a whole lot worse.

Are you already planning on leaving again in August of 2012? Sorry, couldn't resist taking a stab at your typo.....kudos to you for taking a bad situation and turning it into a positive. I hope the new place is working out well for you.

[jerkbait_1075]

I give up. You all win.... I can't take this anymore...... As far as spelling. I am typing on my daughters iPad since we're on a family vacation. I am a very low tech guy living in a high tech world ok. Typing on a iPad???? I have snaushage fingers for god sake.....

[frnash]

I give up. You all win.... I can't take this anymore...... As far as spelling. I am typing on my daughters iPad since we're on a family vacation. I am a very low tech guy living in a high tech world ok. Typing on a iPad???? I have snaushage fingers for god sake.....

Typing on an iPad? I know all about that; I often post here from my iPad when I'm away from the desktop machine. The iPad certainly is not a user friendly way to go, especially on this forum. Ditto for the iPhone; talk about "snaushage" fingers — on an iPhone? Yikes!

Have a great vacation!